redreni
Established Member
Further to this thread and this thread, I don't think I had appreciated the extent to which TVMs fail to offer the cheapest fare for the journey a passenger wishes to make and also fail to give any indication that cheaper fares exist (or even that they might exist).
I posted the other day about a GWR machine offering the Anytime but not the Off-Peak single from Reading to Eynsford, which the collective wisdom of the forum diagnosed as being an issue where off-peak single and return tickets with a GWR station as the origin on ovalised flows are not offered. There was some debate as to whether this is likely to be cock-up or conspiracy.
Then today at Kings Cross, I decided to use an LNER TVM to buy a ticket I need for Saturday from either Boundary Zone 6 or West Drayton to Maidenhead. Bizarrely, it would sell the Boundary Zone ticket as an off-peak day return (but this was no good to me because it would only sell tickets for today via the Boundary Zone menu, not for future dates), but for the West Drayton to Maidenhead ticket it would sell an Anytime Day Return for a future date but didn't find the off-peak day return when a Saturday was selected.
Delving into the FAQs on the machine, there is an FAQ "what tickets can I buy from this machine?" (see image) to which the answer is "most tickets". I must say it reads rather well and strikes a much less passenger-hostile tone than most TOC comms about ticketing matters.
It does then acknowledge the possibility of the cheapest ticket not being available, advising passengers to go to the ticket office, or if the ticket office is not open to buy on the train or at their destination. But it also appears to suggest there is a requirement to inform staff (it doesn't say what happens if no staff are present) before boarding a train without a ticket when no facility existed to buy the ticket you require, and that failure to fulfil said requirement may result in a penalty fare. I don't know what to think about this? It seems well-meaning and pragmatic, and may in some cases lead to a customer seeking out staff who can sell them a ticket or arrange for someone else to do so, but does also appear to say a penalty fare will or should be imposed in a situation where it shouldn't be, and to put the onus on the customer to prevent this. My concern is this threat of a penalty fare unless prior permission is obtained from potentially non-existent staff, when combined with failure to sell or acknowledge the existence of cheaper fares, may be likely to make people feel they have no option but to buy an unnecessarily expensive ticket from the TVM (even if they know that the cheaper fare exists).
Is buying a ticket at the station becoming increasingly like buying gas and electricity via a prepayment meter? I.e. if you have to do it, you can, but it'll cost you?
What other examples are people aware of where cheaper fares are not shown, and no clue is given that cheaper fares exist, at TVMs?
Is it still the case, for example, that if you insert a Smartcard at a TVM and then search for fares, super off-peak fares will then fail to appear in search results and no warning is given that cheaper fares are available on paper? Do the Elizabeth Line TVMs at Heathrow still fail to show Network Railcard-discounted off-peak single fares that undercut Oyster and Contactless (e.g. the £10.95 CDS from Heathrow Rail to various stations in zones 1-6 route 'Not Heathrow Express')?
Is there anything beyond the TOCs' own rather feeble "ticket machine price guarantee" to prevent TOCs overcharging for tickets bought from TVMs?
I suspect most people on this forum rarely if ever turn up at a train station wanting to buy a ticket without already knowing what the fares are and what ticket they want to buy. I get the impression most of us generally buy online before arriving at the station (even if only a short time before). I am concerned, though, that somebody like my mother would expect to be able to buy at the station and would assume that whatever fares are shown to her by the ticket machine are the only fares there are. Those are the people who would benefit from the imposition and enforcement of some basic standards to protect consumers. Because at the moment, either they find out they were overcharged and it leaves a sour taste in the mouth, or they don't find out and they just think the railway is poor value for money.
I posted the other day about a GWR machine offering the Anytime but not the Off-Peak single from Reading to Eynsford, which the collective wisdom of the forum diagnosed as being an issue where off-peak single and return tickets with a GWR station as the origin on ovalised flows are not offered. There was some debate as to whether this is likely to be cock-up or conspiracy.
Then today at Kings Cross, I decided to use an LNER TVM to buy a ticket I need for Saturday from either Boundary Zone 6 or West Drayton to Maidenhead. Bizarrely, it would sell the Boundary Zone ticket as an off-peak day return (but this was no good to me because it would only sell tickets for today via the Boundary Zone menu, not for future dates), but for the West Drayton to Maidenhead ticket it would sell an Anytime Day Return for a future date but didn't find the off-peak day return when a Saturday was selected.
Delving into the FAQs on the machine, there is an FAQ "what tickets can I buy from this machine?" (see image) to which the answer is "most tickets". I must say it reads rather well and strikes a much less passenger-hostile tone than most TOC comms about ticketing matters.
It does then acknowledge the possibility of the cheapest ticket not being available, advising passengers to go to the ticket office, or if the ticket office is not open to buy on the train or at their destination. But it also appears to suggest there is a requirement to inform staff (it doesn't say what happens if no staff are present) before boarding a train without a ticket when no facility existed to buy the ticket you require, and that failure to fulfil said requirement may result in a penalty fare. I don't know what to think about this? It seems well-meaning and pragmatic, and may in some cases lead to a customer seeking out staff who can sell them a ticket or arrange for someone else to do so, but does also appear to say a penalty fare will or should be imposed in a situation where it shouldn't be, and to put the onus on the customer to prevent this. My concern is this threat of a penalty fare unless prior permission is obtained from potentially non-existent staff, when combined with failure to sell or acknowledge the existence of cheaper fares, may be likely to make people feel they have no option but to buy an unnecessarily expensive ticket from the TVM (even if they know that the cheaper fare exists).
Is buying a ticket at the station becoming increasingly like buying gas and electricity via a prepayment meter? I.e. if you have to do it, you can, but it'll cost you?
What other examples are people aware of where cheaper fares are not shown, and no clue is given that cheaper fares exist, at TVMs?
Is it still the case, for example, that if you insert a Smartcard at a TVM and then search for fares, super off-peak fares will then fail to appear in search results and no warning is given that cheaper fares are available on paper? Do the Elizabeth Line TVMs at Heathrow still fail to show Network Railcard-discounted off-peak single fares that undercut Oyster and Contactless (e.g. the £10.95 CDS from Heathrow Rail to various stations in zones 1-6 route 'Not Heathrow Express')?
Is there anything beyond the TOCs' own rather feeble "ticket machine price guarantee" to prevent TOCs overcharging for tickets bought from TVMs?
I suspect most people on this forum rarely if ever turn up at a train station wanting to buy a ticket without already knowing what the fares are and what ticket they want to buy. I get the impression most of us generally buy online before arriving at the station (even if only a short time before). I am concerned, though, that somebody like my mother would expect to be able to buy at the station and would assume that whatever fares are shown to her by the ticket machine are the only fares there are. Those are the people who would benefit from the imposition and enforcement of some basic standards to protect consumers. Because at the moment, either they find out they were overcharged and it leaves a sour taste in the mouth, or they don't find out and they just think the railway is poor value for money.
