Ticket validity between Brockley & London Terminals

[GiovanniBCY75]

I have a Southern annual gold card which is for Brockley to London Terminals. The card also states that “Route/also available at ANY PERMITTED”. Brockley is in zone 2, and London Terminals (i.e.e London Bridge and Victoria) are zone 1. However, the Southern ‘metro’ service between London Bridge and Victoria travels through zone 3 as it goes further south through the Gipsy Hill bit before going back into zones 2 and 1. The odd thing is that I can exit the station at New Cross Gate, which is the only station between London Bridge and Brockley, but I wouldn’t be able to exit any of the zone 3 stations between Brockley and Victoria. The argument being that I don’t have a railcard including zone 3. Is it normal to be unable to exit a station on the line which the train travels?

Finally, because it states “Any Permitted” on the railcard, would I be entitled to travel on a fast train from London Bridge to East Croydon (zone 5), and then get a fast train to Victoria (or vice versa)? Sometimes, if my twice hourly metro train is cancelled, it is faster to do this but I don’t know if my ticket is valid.

 

[30907]

AIUI:
A rail ticket is always valid by the shortest route from A to B, and by any route up to 3 miles longer, and by any through train. Brockley to Victoria is about 12 miles via Gypsy Hill, slightly less via London Bridge, Waterloo and Clapham Junction or via London Bridge and Denmark Hill. All of those routes are therefore valid.

The route via either Croydon station is nearer 17 miles which makes it invalid. "Any permitted" doesn't mean "any possible."

The Zone boundaries don't matter in this case as it's a pure rail product (however, your ticket might not operate barriers everywhere....).

London Terminals for this purpose also include Cannon Street, Blackfriars, City TL and Vauxhall.

 

[GiovanniBCY75]

Thanks. It is still not clear to me what "Any permitted" means, if this isn't stipulated anywhere. I can't find what this means in the conditions of carriage and it would undoubtedly vary. This is open to interpretation if you ask me.

Would I be able to use the London Overground from Brockley to Crystal Palace and take up a Southern train to Victoria? Quite often the L. Bridge-Victoria train, if a little late, skips stations (including mine) with the logic that I can use a London Overground service to connect. But do I have a season ticket to use the London Overground? I wouldn't have thought so.

 

[bb21]

Thanks. It is still not clear to me what "Any permitted" means, if this isn't stipulated anywhere. I can't find what this means in the conditions of carriage and it would undoubtedly vary. This is open to interpretation if you ask me.

You need to refer to Condition 13 of the National Conditions of Travel.

 

[yorkie]

I have a Southern annual gold card which is for Brockley to London Terminals. The card also states that “Route/also available at ANY PERMITTED”.

The following are permitted:

• through trains;
• the shortest route and
• any route within 3 miles of the shortest route.

Brockley is in zone 2, and London Terminals (i.e.e London Bridge and Victoria) are zone 1. However, the Southern ‘metro’ service between London Bridge and Victoria travels through zone 3 as it goes further south through the Gipsy Hill bit before going back into zones 2 and 1.

This isn't relevant if you hold a point-to-point ticket.

The Zones relate to Travelcard products. You do not hold a Travelcard product.

The odd thing is that I can exit the station at New Cross Gate, which is the only station between London Bridge and Brockley, but I wouldn’t be able to exit any of the zone 3 stations between Brockley and Victoria.

The route between Brockley and Victoria via Gipsy Hill is not considered to be a permitted route. You may take through trains from Brockley to Victoria, but the view of the rail industry is that if you do not remain on the through train and choose to exit at a station that is not on a permitted route, your ticket would not be considered valid.

I am aware of counter-arguments to the above viewpoint, but unless you have plenty of cash to spend on solicitors fees, I would not even consider attempting it.

The argument being that I don’t have a railcard including zone 3.

Neither Railcards nor Travelcard Zones are applicable, so if someone has made this argument, they have a fundamental misunderstanding of routeing permissions.

Gateline staff (and especially those employed by GTR) are often lacking full knowledge regarding how to determine permitted routes, as often not part of their training.

Is it normal to be unable to exit a station on the line which the train travels?

I could list many examples of through trains which take routes that are not otherwise permitted (and it is valid to take the train only due to the through trains rule), however for most customers, it would be true to say that it would normally be the case that a through train would typically take a route that is considered to be a permitted route.

Finally, because it states “Any Permitted” on the railcard, would I be entitled to travel on a fast train from London Bridge to East Croydon (zone 5), and then get a fast train to Victoria (or vice versa)?

Any permitted route is valid, but that is not a permitted route.

Sometimes, if my twice hourly metro train is cancelled, it is faster to do this but I don’t know if my ticket is valid.

If there is disruption the company may lift restrictions (depending on the severity of the disruption) so it's worth asking them when disruption occurs, perhaps on Twitter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the 3 mile thing was no longer the case?

 

[yorkie]

I thought the 3 mile thing was no longer the case?

It is the case, it's just not clarified in the National Rail Conditions of Travel (it really should be!)

 

[30907]

The route between Brockley and Victoria via Gipsy Hill is not considered to be a permitted route. ...

Happy to accept the correction, but what is the rationale for this? It's well within 3 miles of the other possible routes to Victoria.

 

[yorkie]

Happy to accept the correction, but what is the rationale for this? It's well within 3 miles of the other possible routes to Victoria.

You make an excellent point, though I was hoping to avoid this particular issue as it is contentious and opens up a potential huge can of worms.

The view of the rail industry is that LU mileage counts for this purpose. So in this case the shortest route is considered to be 6miles 16chains.

You could certainly argue a case against that but if anyone tried it and was successful, it would lead to fares being re-routed as appropriate, which would be detrimental to people taking the direct trains, as has happened elsewhere (e.g. Mouldsworth to Meols Cop can no longer be done on a direct train using one ticket; you have to change multiple times and have drastically reduced journey opportunities)

 

[30907]

You make an excellent point, though I was hoping to avoid this particular issue as it is contentious and opens up a potential huge can of worms.

The view of the rail industry is that LU mileage counts for this purpose. So in this case the shortest route is considered to be 6miles 16chains.

Intriguing, given that a rail-only ticket to London (SR) Terminals isn't (normally) valid on LU , so there is no legitimate route to Victoria unless a through train is available.

 

[Clip]

Intriguing, given that a rail-only ticket to London (SR) Terminals isn't (normally) valid on LU , so there is no legitimate route to Victoria unless a through train is available.

Wonder if that would count if you changed at Penge West to East ? Dont know that mileage though.