Ticket Splitting at Pick Up Only

[ChrisTheRef]

Bonjour
On Monday, I'm travelling from Euston to Warrington via Wolverhampton.
I have a ticket from Watford Junction to Warrington, but nothing between EUS and WFJ.
If I buy a single, can I jump on the train as normal, bearing in mind that it stops at Watford to PICK UP ONLY
Many thanks

 

[t0ffeeman]

You should be able to Excess it to start at Euston. The excess should be zero depending on what type ticket it is. A SVR from Watford to Warrington is the same price as from Euston.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is it not possible to get your Watford to Warrington ticket over-distance excessed, so as to be valid from Euston?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Based on the wording of the NCoC I would have to say yes, but I suspect some guards would say no because it is not permitted for you to get off the train at Watford.

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.
You must comply with any restriction shown on the tickets relating to travel in the trains of
a particular Train Company or Train Companies (see Condition 10).

I don't think it had pick up only stops in mind when it was written.

If possible Excessing is the best option (but not for an advance ticket)

 

[John @ home]

If you have Advance ticket(s) Watford Jn - Warrington then my advice would be to catch an earlier Euston - Watford Jn train and to join the Wolverhampton train at Watford. My reasoning is:

• Virgin are specifically prohibited by the terms of their franchise from carrying Euston - Watford Jn passengers.
• As a result, Virgin receive zero ORCATS allocation from the Euston - Watford Jn flow.
• As a result, they have given firm instructions to their train managers to charge a fare to the first stop where the train is scheduled to set down.
• It is likely therefore that you would not be allowed to complete your journey to Warrington via Wolverhampton without purchasing a full fare ticket to the first stop at which the train is scheduled to set down, e.g. a £61 SOS Euston - Coventry
• If there is a barrier check at Euston, it is very likely that you would not be allowed to board the Euston - Wolverhampton train. By the time you discover this, it is likely that it will be too late to get to Watford Jn by any means to catch the train there. This risks losing the whole value of the Advance ticket(s).
• hairyhandedfool has a very powerful argument that the combination is actually allowed by the NRCoC.
• If he is right, Virgin have a liability to carry some Euston - Watford Jn passengers and may well have a right to some part of the ORCATS allocation for that flow. It is a large flow, well worth fighting for even a small slice.
• If Virgin were to win a part of this flow, there is a good chance they could claim this retrospectively to the start of the first Virgin franchise.
• There is therefore a powerful incentive for Virgin to charge you a full fare ticket, to encourage you to appeal, to facilitate that appeal and to lose it.
• This process is likely to be prolonged and stressful.

 

[b0b]

[*]hairyhandedfool has a very powerful argument that the combination is actually allowed by the NRCoC.
[/LIST]

or the NRCoC will be "clarified" and the wording "calls at" will be amended to "calls at for picking up and setting down passengers"

(ie. it would be valid to leave and board the train with the combination of the tickets you wish to use)

 

[John @ home]

or the NRCoC will be "clarified" and the wording "calls at" will be amended to "calls at for picking up and setting down passengers"

That would not be a clarification. It would be a change.

A change to the NRCoC could not be retrospective. It would therefore have no effect on the validity of any Watford Jn - Warrington Advance ticket which ChrisTheRef has already purchased.

 

[Deerfold]

[*]Virgin are specifically prohibited by the terms of their franchise from carrying Euston - Watford Jn passengers.[/LIST]

I know I'm veering a little off-topic but do you know why this is? It seems a little hard on people at Watford Junction making them take extra time to get into London compared with, say, services at Stevenage or Slough. Especially as they used to.

I know you used to be able to as I went to Milton Keynes to see a band some years ago (2002 or 3?) splitting tickets at Watford Junction (worth it as one of the tickets didn't cost me anything).

I remember it clearly as the person at the ticket office at Euston wanted proof I had a ticket which would cover me that far before he'd sell the one from Watford Junction. Ah if only I knew what I know now...

 

[RJ]

Based on the wording of the NCoC I would have to say yes, but I suspect some guards would say no because it is not permitted for you to get off the train at Watford.



I don't think it had pick up only stops in mind when it was written.

If possible Excessing is the best option (but not for an advance ticket)

With consideration to the CoC, a passenger at Euston will not know that it calls at Watford Junction however as it wouldn't show up on the departure boards and the timetables make it clear that one cannot disembark/finish their journey there. Potentially ambiguous I can agree with however.

LM run around 4-6 tph between Euston and Watford so I'd suggest buying a ticket and using one of their services just to be 100% on the safe side. This is my advice assuming that the ticket from Watford Junction to Warrington is an Advance. If it's a walk up ticket simply purchased in advance then I agree with all advice about getting it excessed.

 

[John @ home]

the timetables make it clear that one cannot disembark/finish their journey there

But one can use Condition 19(b) to combine a ticket to Watford Jn with a ticket from Watford Jn on any train that calls there. There is no doubt that ChrisTheRef's train is advertised in the timetable to call there. There is even a footnote to that effect!

 

[alexjames]

I'm not sure that you ever used to be OK for Euston/Watford on Virgin.

It has not been permissible for many years. Thus you get the nonsense at Euston where Virgin stoppers at WJ are not shown as such and the very silly displays at WJ showing Virgin stoppers as terminating there.

Of course it doesn't completely succeed. Your prospects of bother if you get on at WJ to travel to Euston are minimal. The TM will have finished his rounds and if not, is unlikely to take the point if you have an otherwise valid ticket. Going the other way its just a barrier check at Euston that stops you and they are intermittent. If you place yourself at the opposite end of the train to the TM, he will not get round to you by the time the train gets to WJ. Its unlikely that any staff at WJ would bother you about it.

The reason for it is, I assume, to protect the vast revenues that LM get for the route. Its not really much of an inconvenience to use LM rather than Virgin most of the time - there are plenty of LM fast and semi fasts which are only a few minutes slower.

 

[John @ home]

Virgin are specifically prohibited by the terms of their franchise from carrying Euston - Watford Jn passengers.

do you know why this is?

Google on moderation of competition for a lot on this subject.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

With consideration to the CoC, a passenger at Euston will not know that it calls at Watford Junction however as it wouldn't show up on the departure boards and the timetables make it clear that one cannot disembark/finish their journey there. Potentially ambiguous I can agree with however....

If it is in the timetable that it calls there (it does not matter why it calls there), Virgin would have to dispute that either it does not actually call there or that the ticket is NOT subject to the terms laid out in the NCoC. They cannot do either.

 

[yorkie]

I agree they cannot do the latter. However they can try to claim it does not 'call', however it is clearly a grey area ('call' isn't defined) and if anyone was to try it they would have to be prepared for a battle.

I agree it should be valid (and revenue allocation doesn't come into it, before anyone uses that argument ) and I agree the wording can be interpreted in a way that confirms it is valid, however an alternative interpretation is that, from Euston, the train doesn't "call" as it isn't shown as an advertised stop at Euston.

I would like to see someone test this, but only if they're prepared for what they could be getting into!

 

[b0b]

yorkie:

the other interpretation is that the tickets you combine under NRCoC 19b means that it is not necessary to get off an on the train at the split point, but the tickets must otherwise be valid as if you had to.

if you were to take that interpretation, then yeah, it could easily be considered not valid.

Anyway, due to 19c, Virgin must get some London to Watford Jcn revenue, if someone had say a Milton Keynes Central to Watford Jcn season ticket, and buys an Watford Jcn to London Terminals extension (non season) it is clearly valid...

 

[Pumbaa]

In this particular example, it's highly unlikely that you're going to get checked before Watford, in fact I would be astonished if you did. You could try being very apologetic at not understanding the PU restriction on Watford.

 

[yorkie]

Anyway, due to 19c, Virgin must get some London to Watford Jcn revenue, if someone had say a Milton Keynes Central to Watford Jcn season ticket, and buys an Watford Jcn to London Terminals extension (non season) it is clearly valid...

I agree it's valid, but is there any evidence that ORCATS considers anything other than point-to-point journeys where the ticket is for the entire journey?

I thought that combining tickets was beyond the scope of ORCATS? That is certainly the impression that has been given...

Just because something is valid does not mean it generates revenue. We're told that if two direct trains operate on the same flow, and one overtakes the other, the overtaken train gets no revenue. The "must get some revenue" claim could be banded about for the slow train, but it would be incorrect.

Revenue allocation doesn't determine validity and validity doesn't determine revenue allocation. It is a surprisingly common belief that the two "must" be linked!