Ticket snatching by machines

[theblackwatch]

So how is a passenger meant to use the https://www.daysoutguide.co.uk/2for1-london offer, which states "Just browse our list of 2FOR1 London offers (the ones with pink 2FOR1 tickets on them), then download a voucher and present it with your rail ticket when you visit the attraction"? Are people really meant to know that the ticket will be retained, after several years of them not doing so?

 

[185]

Golden Rule of claiming for rail travel - get a receipt in addition to your ticket. Ive done this since BR days and have never had a problem with tickets going inot barriers.

Bizarrely, I reckon it's in the interest of operators NOT to take tickets, simply because of fraudulent compensation claims - the receipt is just proof that J Public paid for a ticket.

The real ticket could hold data such as gate entry data or conductor marks giving away a time or date it has been used, essential for disproving claims. Holding a receipt opens the door to claims that people could have been on ANY train - the process of digging out ticket X from 30,000 tickets would be financially far more costly than just paying out the fraudulent ones.

The best solution would be a very basic thermal print applied to "Used" tickets ideally with a time and date on, or at least a hole-punch mark, and return it to the passenger.

 

[jon0844]

Or make receipts show exactly what was purchased. You could use abbreviations for the ticket types and origin/destination 3 digit codes. So it wouldn't take up loads of paper.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or make receipts show exactly what was purchased. You could use abbreviations for the ticket types and origin/destination 3 digit codes. So it wouldn't take up loads of paper.

I think they do on some TOCs.

 

[Chris M]

I always speak to the member of staff on the gateline and say that I need to keep the ticket. Very occasionally they'll say that the gate will give it back, and in my experience they've never been wrong on that. Far, far more often though they'll just take a look at the ticket and let me out. Often it's no more than a glance to see I have an appropriately coloured bit of card, but at Oxford on Sunday the staff member cancelled the ticket with the same device a guard uses (apparently I travelled on 1P19, but I can't find one of them calling at Oxford on Sundays. I actually arrived on 2N38).

 

[greatkingrat]

Or make receipts show exactly what was purchased. You could use abbreviations for the ticket types and origin/destination 3 digit codes. So it wouldn't take up loads of paper.

The danger is if you put too much information on the receipt, some people will think that is the actual ticket.

 

[route:oxford]

I always get a receipt if I need to claim for travel expenses. My workplace technically doesn't accept used tickets, it has to be a proper receipt.

Original receipts are best. The railway doesn't require the return of the original receipt for a refund though.

It's an easy scam to buy the full price ticket on the day of travel then immediately return to the desk with a "change of plans". Then use the advance purchase ticket bought previously at a pittance.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I always try to avoid putting tickets in ticket gates when changing trains, e.g. from Lime Street LL to HL, or validly breaking journeys. There is almost always a member of staff nearby who will let you through without you having to put your ticket through the gate. I would be very annoyed if my long distance ticket got eaten up before I had even travelled 5% of the way.

 

[Crossover]

I was a bit miffed when, a couple of weeks ago, a ticket from Uphall to Edinburgh was retained by the barrier at Haymarket. In the event it didn't matter, but still...

I have had problems with Haymarket before though, with it once retaining a Central Scotland 3 in 7 on its first day of validity! That's when I saw what happens to the used tickets as he had to go through a pile of them to find it

 

[gray1404]

Do you have any other proof of payment for your journey? How did you pay for the ticket? I believe you have 3 months to claim for a hospital travel expense so lets see what we can do to help you. Do you have the ticket for the return leg of the journey?

 

[bussnapperwm]

I usually keep it in a holder, in a A6 clear wallet and explain that I need it for expenses, 99.9% of the time I never get questioned at the barrier doing that. I've never trusted a ticket barrier if I am honest

 

[kermit]

my former work place would only accept a train ticket and receipt for a valid expenses claim. It was a clear opportunity to skimp on expenses.

...and mine isn't bothered about receipts for travel, but wants actual travel tickets as used....

 

[Hadders]

Are VTEC Advance tickets issued to 'Kings Cross' or to 'London Terminals'? If it is KGX then this will explain why they are retained. London Terminals tickets shouldn't be retained as the ticket will have onward validity to Moorgate. I am travelling to London tomorrow using a Stevenage-London Terminals ticket so I will check (when I travelled last week the ticket was still returned).

The inter-availability is required now more than ever. Consider passengers travelling stations on the Hertford Loop services at weekends who need to get to Kings Cross - they will now travel to Highbury & Islington and onwards to Kings Cross via the Victoria Line.

The outward portion of my Stevenage-London Terminals Anytime Day Return was returned to me by the barriers line in the main train shed.

...and mine isn't bothered about receipts for travel, but wants actual travel tickets as used....

It annoys me when employers treat rail travel differently to road. How do you claim for a car journey?

 

[al78]

The outward portion of my Stevenage-London

It annoys me when employers treat rail travel differently to road. How do you claim for a car journey?

Normally employers ask you to submit mileage and it is worked out using a cost per mile. Roads are different from railways because a car journey is not a scheduled mode of public transport so there are no tickets, but there is a mileage figure. If it were a taxi journey, then a receipt would be used to claim.

 

[edwin_m]

Or make receipts show exactly what was purchased. You could use abbreviations for the ticket types and origin/destination 3 digit codes. So it wouldn't take up loads of paper.

That wouldn't solve the problem for a walk-up ticket - passenger could browse to find a delayed train it was valid on and just claim they were using that with the receipt as "proof". As long as the ticket was sold before the departure time of the train there's no way of detecting that fraud. Whereas the actual ticket may bear evidence of when it was passed through the barriers and/or checked on board.

This also means that people attempting to commit this sort of fraud could legitimately get a member of staff to let them through the exit barrier, so instead of a magnetic timestamp the ticket gets an untraceable squiggle or nothing at all.

 

[yorkie]

Whereas the actual ticket may bear evidence of when it was passed through the barriers...

Do any employers really insist on receiving physical copies of the tickets after travel and then use magnetic stripe readers to see if they can work out what time it went through a barrier? I find this very hard to believe.

and/or checked on board.

Even if the headcode of the the train was written on the ticket, it may not be accurate! And even if it was, is the employer really going to look this information up? Again I find this very hard to believe.

Are you talking about compensation, rather than expense claims? If so, then it is perhaps slightly more plausible a train company may resort to the above methods, but many of the same caveats apply and I still can't see they'd have the time, and I am yet to have any company insist that I send physical tickets. I also will take photographs of tickets before the journey is completed to avoid potential issues with barriers swallowing tickets, or simply losing the tickets. If train companies were to insist on physical tickets being posted, I'd argue they'd have to ensure ALL gatelines returned tickets and did NOT retain them. I can't see this happening at all!

 

[xotGD]

If all ticket barriers returned all tickets it would save the station staff the job of emptying the ticket collection bins.

 

[Llanigraham]

If all ticket barriers returned all tickets it would save the station staff the job of emptying the ticket collection bins.

And it would need more litter pickers because too many people are too damned lazy to find a bin to put their litter in, so the tickets would end up on the floor.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

It is possible for train managers to check tickets to see if they have been through a ticket barrier on avantix. if I suspect a ticket has been misused I will swipe it and see what information comes up. However there is no official training on this.

 

[copernicium112]

I certainly wasn't happy when my ticket was eaten at Paddington today when I might need it in a complaint to GWR about their ticket office staff.

 

[father_jack]

I certainly wasn't happy when my ticket was eaten at Paddington today when I might need it in a complaint to GWR about their ticket office staff.

You "might" need it for a complaint ? Complain or don't. The old saying was "I used to be indecisive but now I'm not too sure".

It's those who insist "I HAD to put the ticket in the barrier to get out...". No you didn't. You have a thing on the front of your face called a mouth and you say to one of the barrier staff/revenue bods (often described on here as standing around doing nothing) "dear man I must go to the booking office so can I keep my ticket please". There you go.

 

[edwin_m]

Are you talking about compensation, rather than expense claims?

I was thinking of compensation, following a sub-thread that started with #32. I agree employers wouldn't bother to go to that level of detail for an expense claim, unless perhaps some sort of serious fraud was already suspected.

 

[D365]

But, I would agree with you that it would be reasonable to remove this given that the line now has extended opening hours.

This would be a problem for passengers whose trains don't stop at Finsbury Park - there are many of these in the peaks. Also, forcing more passengers onto the Moorgate trains at Finsbury Park would not be a good idea in the peaks - they're wedged enough as it is.

Agreed, having known commuters travelling from Cambridgeshire to Moorgate, it would be a royal pain to be forced off their fast trains, for what sake I don't know. The easement had little to do with opening hours.

 

[crosscity]

In my experience most barriers keep the ticket at the final destination. I tend to be surprised by the Waterloo barriers which return it (AIUI, as inbound tickets can be used from Waterloo East to London Bridge). I always use a manual gate if I want to retain a ticket, and it's rarely a problem.

This might be true in NetworkSouthEast land, but at Birmingham New Street I have never had a ticket retained.

 

[crosscity]

I always try to avoid putting tickets in ticket gates when changing trains, e.g. from Lime Street LL to HL, or validly breaking journeys. There is almost always a member of staff nearby who will let you through without you having to put your ticket through the gate. I would be very annoyed if my long distance ticket got eaten up before I had even travelled 5% of the way.

.... and I've never had a ticket retained anywhere that was not the destination on the ticket.

 

[island]

It is possible for train managers to check tickets to see if they have been through a ticket barrier on avantix. if I suspect a ticket has been misused I will swipe it and see what information comes up. However there is no official training on this.

Avantix is becoming somewhat of an endangered species however, and I don’t think that most of the new portable ticket issuance systems support interrogating a ticket.

To the original point, I don’t understand why employers/hospitals/etc. require you to produce and hand over another person’s property to claim a refund. The National Rail Conditions of Travel, to which you choose to agree when buying a ticket, state that tickets remain the property of the Railway and must be handed in on request. The train company isn’t under any obligation to return tickets to facilitate expense claims; receipts are available from the point of purchase for this exact purpose. If an organization is so distrusting of its employees that it doesn’t want to accept a receipt, perhaps it should be using rail travel warrants.