Ticket sales figures

[TheWalrus]

Hi all,

Is there any way I can get ticket sales figures in one financial year between 2 particular stations? (e.g. the amounts of tickets sold between Cwmbran and London Terminals in the financial year 2007/2008 ).

Thanks

Ryan

 

[glynn80]

Is there any way I can get ticket sales figures in one financial year between 2 particular stations? (e.g. the amounts of tickets sold between Cwmbran and London Terminals in the financial year 2007/2008 ).

This information you require is located within the LENNON sales database owned and operated by ATOC on behalf of the TOCs. Both the ORR and the DfT have terminals with access to LENNON but unfortunately now refuse to release any information from the database. Back in 2007, the ORR did release the LENNON sales data concerning ticket sales at Arlesey, Aspley Guise, Bedford, Bedford St Johns, Biggleswade, Flitwick, Harlington, Kempston Hardwick, Lidlington, Millbrook (Beds), Ridgmont, Sandy, and Stewartby stations (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/foi_54.PDF), however after this release, ATOC made representations to the ORR that the information within LENNON was comercially sensitive to their members and that they wished any further FOI requests to be turned down.

The following message now appears on the ORR website:

Since the request of 9 March 2007 (see below) was processed ORR has received written representations from ATOC putting on the record their objection to onward disclosure of their LENNON database information on the grounds of its commercially sensitive nature. ORR has therefore concluded that it is now prohibited from releasing this database information under Section 145 of the Railways Act 1993 (the 1993 Act) and Section 237 of the Enterprise Act 2002 (the 2002 Act). Section 145 of the 1993 Act provides that no information with respect to any particular business which has been obtained under or by virtue of any provisions of that Act, and relates to the affairs of any individual or to any particular business (i.e. train operators and Network Rail), shall be disclosed without the consent of that individual or business. Section 237 of the 2002 Act has a similar exemption in terms of information obtained by ORR in the course of investigations made under the Competition Act 1998 or the 2002 Act. Releasing information in breach of the bar in both s.145 and s.237 is a criminal offence.

The ORR does however release station usage statistics (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1529) for each stations which is derived from sales listed within the LENNON sales database however this is not broken down per flow (i.e. Cwmbran to London Terminals) it just lists the overall figure for all the tickets sold to or from a particular station.

 

[TheWalrus]

Yeah I know about each stations APU. How come Arriva published some of these figures in a railway magazine? But thanks for this information. Oh they do talk some crap!

 

[djw1981]

Because Arriva as a member of ATOC own the data.... they can choose to release it, but can/have also blocked a 3rd party releasing it.

 

[glynn80]

Yeah I know about each stations APU. How come Arriva published some of these figures in a railway magazine? But thanks for this information. Oh they do talk some crap!

I didn't actually know about this, does anyone remember which magazine it was? But anyway as djw1981 said, the data Arriva released would have been owned by them and it is their choice whether or not they wish to release that data.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The inability to access this information is, of course, a consequence of a privatised rail network; the replies above are quite correct.
In particular, I must emphasise that any TOC is quite at liberty to boast about its own data in its Press Releases when it suits them (perhaps to justify some change in their operations). But their decision isn't going to result in the publication of neutral or negative performance data.
It is just possible that if your need for that information was to enable a public body (such as a local, county or regional authority) to make an informed decision about an investment proposal, then I'm sure there would be some disclosure at Departmental level - your MP would advise.

Perhaps you'd agree that its fair enough that commercially sensitive information, in a competitive market, is not made available to competitors.
But even if you do, there's still 2 hurdles for any TOC to jump over:-
- can they demonstrate that there is any ACTUAL commercial and competitive risk to disclosure? (consider ScotRail as an example)
- in a privatised network, are the investors' decisions to invest or withdraw from shareholdings informed by the data you are asking for? Data which would be available in a public body investing in the rail network.

What really annoys me is the lack of transparenty, accountability and scrutiny at any level!
To illustrate, I'm a shareholder in a couple of TOCs and I can't find out the answer to your question. That should worry you! I base my investment decisons on whatever scraps of info I can get from wherever - and that's never reliable. This really should worry you!

 

[glynn80]

Perhaps you'd agree that its fair enough that commercially sensitive information, in a competitive market, is not made available to competitors.
But even if you do, there's still 2 hurdles for any TOC to jump over:-
- can they demonstrate that there is any ACTUAL commercial and competitive risk to disclosure? (consider ScotRail as an example)
- in a privatised network, are the investors' decisions to invest or withdraw from shareholdings informed by the data you are asking for? Data which would be available in a public body investing in the rail network.

Scotrail actually has very strong compeition from Scottish Citylink, the coach firm. The competition was deemed strong enough that when National Express acquired Scotrail, they were forced by the Competition Commission to divest Scottish Citylink from their books within six months of their Scotrail takeover (http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/rep_pub/reports/1997/410scotrail.htm).

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes, thanks for that. I was aware, when posting, that competition between rail and other modes of transport would be a reason for invoking the lawful exclusions from disclosure.
However, there is actually no end to the ability to include other modes, other (potentially) competitive businesses, other personal decisions, customs and practices, all within the legal argument to justify actual or potential "competition". (This could include the likes of petrol stations, airports, catering facilities, taxi and car hire facilities, cycle shops, bus shelters, highways developments - even entertainments!). There really is no end to the list!
I tried to confine my reply to competition within the rail industry.
But I hope you'd agree, notwithstanding your quite valid point, that the "competitive" argument for non-disclosure, may or not be reasonably justifiable within the confines of the rail network; but when there is no competition within the rail franchising (or its competition is highly constrained, as in Scotland), then we can find no reasonable & practical commercial justification for non-disclosure?

(When I qualify my question with "reasonable & practical" I'm assuming that if a coach operator was considering a competitive service, then they would have other, reliable and specific market research data at their disposal anyway. My point was that the shareholding investors in the 2 competing companies would NOT have that data. So the actual commercial choices would be badly informed).

 

[glynn80]

However, there is actually no end to the ability to include other modes, other (potentially) competitive businesses, other personal decisions, customs and practices, all within the legal argument to justify actual or potential "competition". (This could include the likes of petrol stations, airports, catering facilities, taxi and car hire facilities, cycle shops, bus shelters, highways developments - even entertainments!). There really is no end to the list!

Well just because ATOC states that a particular flow is commercially sensitive does not mean that is the end of it. You can always appeal to the Information Commissioner and if that fails to the Information Tribunal. I actually have a pending appeal with the IC regarding All Line Rover sales data which I tried to obtain via FOI through the ORR.

But I hope you'd agree, notwithstanding your quite valid point, that the "competitive" argument for non-disclosure, may or not be reasonably justifiable within the confines of the rail network; but when there is no competition within the rail franchising (or its competition is highly constrained, as in Scotland), then we can find no reasonable & practical commercial justification for non-disclosure?

I am unsure 100% of the point you are trying to make but I would only agree that there is no reasonable commercial justification for non-disclosure when all avenues have been exhausted rail and non-rail, it is just tunnel vision, in my opinion, otherwise.

 

[LondonLarry]

If a private company chooses to not disclose that information, I don't understand what the problem is....

 

[shinkansen1966]

If a private company chooses to not disclose that information, I don't understand what the problem is....

That would be understandable if these were proper private companies in the sense that all their money came from the sale of their goods and services. Rail services are different. In addition to the money they make from ticket sales, many private rail companies receive money from the government to run their services. If the company ends the services (eg National Express, GNER and Connex SE), the govt has to step in and continue and run the service.

These rail companies offer a public service using public money. Their data should be made public, too.

The John Lewis Partnership release details to the media about its retails sales.

Keeping stum about not just station ticket sales and (in my own experience) details of money changing hands between Network Rail and train operators, just smacks of obfuscation.

 

[LondonLarry]

That would be understandable if these were proper private companies in the sense that all their money came from the sale of their goods and services. Rail services are different.

I wonder what my chances are of finding out how many car parts, manufactured by British companies, have benefited from the Governement's car scrappage scheme!

The John Lewis Partnership release details to the media about its retails sales.

That is something John Lewis chooses to do - no other high street retailer produces as much data as they do, nor as frequently.