Ticket Sale refused

[lyesbkz]

Hi

I usually buy my advance tickets online for my journey, however this time I decided I'd rather avoid paying by card online. I checked that my journey was available online, and today went to the ticket office at Newcastle to buy the ticket. Firstly when the clerk checked, the time I requested did not appear as a valid departure time - I said I was surprised and the lady showed me the screen with the journeys on it - however I noticed the Route had been set to "EC & connections". When I asked her to try TPE&connect she refused, telling me that she wouldn't sell the ticket because most of the journey was with EC and therefore she "knew it was wrong", but advised I could still buy the ticket online. I always travel with the TPE tickets and have never had a problem. It is my understanding that staff cannot just refuse to sell an available ticket without good reason - am I wrong?

 

[rail-britain]

It is my understanding that staff cannot just refuse to sell an available ticket without good reason - am I wrong?

That is correct, complain to East Coast

 

[yorkie]

They are not allowed to refuse, but the problem is if you make too much of a fuss they may complain to EC HQ and get the tickets withdrawn.

Next time you could ask them not to specify a particular route and see what comes up; they are obliged to do this and must not give preference to their own tickets. If they refuse to comply they are in breach of the Retail Standards Guide.

lyesbkz - you have a PM.

If you have a 16-25 Railcard, always buy TPE & Connections tickets on the TPE site, they offer 50% off, rather than 34% off (providing you click the promotion link).

 

[radamfi]

You might also get 4.54% cashback from TopCashBack if you click through here:

http://www.topcashback.co.uk/first-transpennine-express/

Not sure if the Railcard offer invalidates the cashback or vice versa. I wouldn't have thought so.

 

[bb21]

Not sure if the Railcard offer invalidates the cashback or vice versa. I wouldn't have thought so.

No it doesn't.

 

[island]

The only thing I'd note is that if it was not an impartial sales point then the above don't apply. Only 51% of the open sales points at a station are required to be impartial.

 

[TUC]

The only thing I'd note is that if it was not an impartial sales point then the above don't apply. Only 51% of the open sales points at a station are required to be impartial.

How do you tell which are the impartial ones at any given station?

 

[Mike395]

How do you tell which are the impartial ones at any given station?

I believe any non impartial windows must be clearly marked as such (For example 'Tickets for advance travel' or have clear signs up saying they only sell a particular TOC's tickets)

 

[TUC]

I believe any non impartial windows must be clearly marked as such (For example 'Tickets for advance travel' or have clear signs up saying they only sell a particular TOC's tickets)

How does 'tickets for advance travel' indicate to a member of the public that its a non-impartial window? Most people would read that as meaning 'tickets for journeys after today', especially since the other windows are usually marked 'tickets for travel today'. It does beg the question that if someone wanted to use an impartial window for advance travel, which should they use?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Any limitation to the tickets sold from that sales point must be made known, it may not strictly be 'impartiality', but it is part of the 'Impartial retailing'.

So, if a sales point is restricted to the sale of East Coast's Advance tickets, a sign must be present saying something like "Advance tickets for travel on East Coast services only".

 

[Mike395]

How does 'tickets for advance travel' indicate to a member of the public that its a non-impartial window? Most people would read that as meaning 'tickets for journeys after today', especially since the other windows are usually marked 'tickets for travel today'. It does beg the question that if someone wanted to use an impartial window for advance travel, which should they use?

Surely an 'advanced tickets only' window is not impartial for that very reason?

 

[yorkie]

Let's not confuse the general word 'impartial' with the obligations of 'Impartial Retailing'!

HHF and MikeW are right, any limitation must be made clear. If the limitation is that just tickets for future travel is sold, that doesn't mean they can be biased toward their own products. However if the limitation was made clear as 'East Coast tickets in Advance' or similar, then providing there are sufficient alternative, impartial windows, then that would be acceptable.

In this case, the window may well have been dedicated to advance tickets, but I am confident it will not have been advertised as being East Coast tickets only, it sounds like the member of staff acted contrary to the guidelines set out in the Retail Standards Guide, adherence with this is mandatory for all TOCs.

 

[TUC]

Surely an 'advanced tickets only' window is not impartial for that very reason?

Expecting a customer to know that 'Advanced tickets' means an operator-specific non-impartial window does not sound reasonable. Most people would quite reasonably interpret it as meaning 'travel for after today'. As I said above, in most stations the only alternative are windows labelled 'tickets for immediate travel' so which are the impartial windows if you're not travelling today but want to buy your tickets now and need impartial advice?

In any event, windows for advance travel are usually labelled exactly that, not 'advanced tickets only'. 'Advance travel' and 'advanced tickets' are very different things.

 

[Mike395]

In any event, windows for advance travel are usually labelled exactly that, not 'advanced tickets only'. 'Advance travel' and 'advanced tickets' are very different things.

I agree with you there, was only using it as an example (not got such a window near me so was unsure of exact wording used).

But either way, the restriction must be made clear for a non-impartial section of the ticket office - and I do not know of any ticket offices that have windows only selling Advance tickets (if they do exist, they must clearly state as such).

 

[TUC]

Let's not confuse the general word 'impartial' with the obligations of 'Impartial Retailing'!

HHF and MikeW are right, any limitation must be made clear. If the limitation is that just tickets for future travel is sold, that doesn't mean they can be biased toward their own products. However if the limitation was made clear as 'East Coast tickets in Advance' or similar, then providing there are sufficient alternative, impartial windows, then that would be acceptable.

In this case, the window may well have been dedicated to advance tickets, but I am confident it will not have been advertised as being East Coast tickets only, it sounds like the member of staff acted contrary to the guidelines set out in the Retail Standards Guide, adherence with this is mandatory for all TOCs.

I don't think I've seen a window at any station that is marked as operator-specific, only the 'tickets for advance travel' ones mentioned above. The closest I've seen is as Glasgow Central with a 'tickets for journeys within Scotland' window and clearly even that isn't operator-specific.

Has anyone else seen examples?

 

[Mike395]

I don't think I've seen a window at any station that is marked as operator-specific, only the 'tickets for advance travel' ones mentioned above. The closest I've seen is as Glasgow Central with a 'tickets for journeys within Scotland' window and clearly even that isn't operator-specific.

Bit pedantic I know, but that IS operator-specific, it only sells flows priced by Scotrail (all within-Scotland flows are priced by Scotrail AFAIK, even where a EC or XC service could be used for travel)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Has anyone else seen examples?

Another example, albeit Open-Access (which would make sense if Im honest, as they're run completely for profit), is the Heathrow Express ticket offices at Paddington and Heathrow.

 

[lyesbkz]

They are not allowed to refuse, but the problem is if you make too much of a fuss they may complain to EC HQ and get the tickets withdrawn.

Good thing I didn't have time to kick up a fuss before catching my train out then I just ordered the tickets online, as per.

lyesbkz - you have a PM.

I'll understand its contents sooner or later, I've had a read through and I sort of get the general idea.

they offer 50% off, rather than 34% off (providing you click the promotion link)

I tend to buy First advances which sadly do not qualify for the extra money off - but are still usually excellent value (otherwise I don't buy them!)

You might also get 4.54% cashback from TopCashBack

I wish I'd known about this earlier! I must've spent at least a couple of hundred quid on there over the past year or so booking tickets for myself and others.

The only thing I'd note is that if it was not an impartial sales point then the above don't apply. Only 51% of the open sales points at a station are required to be impartial.

The only observation I made was that it was an Advance Travel window. The thing is, it was late evening and only two windows were open. One was marked as "Tickets for today" and the other "Tickets for Advance travel (including reservations, railcards, ..). They had separate queue lines. Surely this means neither of the windows were impartial, but isn't this just how it is at Newcastle?

 

[TUC]

Bit pedantic I know, but that IS operator-specific, it only sells flows priced by Scotrail (all within-Scotland flows are priced by Scotrail AFAIK, even where a EC or XC service could be used for travel)

You're right although, interestingly, I think I'm right in saying that the window in question has been in place sine pre-privatisation back to the original Scotrail days and so before 'operator-specific' had any real meaning.

 

[Greenback]

No, impartial merely means that they have to sell tickets for any TOC on any route. If a window was marked 'East Coast tickets only', then that is not impartial.

It makes sense to have seperate sales points for 'Tickets for Today' and 'Advance Tickets' at busier stations. Those wanting to travel immediately can be served more quickly, those who are buying tickets for the future may still be in hurry but generally have more time than someone who wants to travel in a few minutes!

None of this excuses the fact that you were given totally the wrong information.

 

[gordonthemoron]

why don't UK ticket machines allow you to buy tickets in advance and also from a different starting station?

 

[Mike395]

why don't UK ticket machines allow you to buy tickets in advance and also from a different starting station?

Good question! I reckon the official answer is along the lines of 'It'd make things too complex' or similar, but I reckon it'd be a really useful addition (note I say addition, it shouldnt replace ticket office staff, which I fear in this country it would do sadly).

 

[radamfi]

why don't UK ticket machines allow you to buy tickets in advance and also from a different starting station?

The official answer is probably that it would lead to fraud with people buying short tickets from the station before their destination to the destination (even though you can buy online and pick up at remote stations). That is despite Dutch, German, Swiss, Belgian and probably other rail networks allowing you to buy a ticket from anywhere to anywhere from a TVM.

 

[island]

I agree with the above as to what the official answer is likely to be. Most ticket machines do allow you to buy tickets for the next day, although the functionality is usually only available for anytime tickets and season tickets, and is often only enabled in the afternoon.

 

[12CSVT]

why don't UK ticket machines allow you to buy tickets in advance and also from a different starting station?

I'd imagine TVMs at Didcot, Reading, Maidenhead etc would be churning out a lot of Acton Main Line to Paddington tickets if this was allowed

 

[LexyBoy]

I'd imagine TVMs at Didcot, Reading, Maidenhead etc would be churning out a lot of Acton Main Line to Paddington tickets if this was allowed

Maybe... but that doesn't make it a good excuse. It just confirms that using barriers as the only form of revenue protection isn't going to work.

Surely it can't be so hard to program barriers to reject tickets from the nearest stations (especially somewhere like Paddington, where the mainline platforms are separate from the local platforms). Anyone caught with such an obviously fraudulent ticket can be treated as such (or PF if they're smart enough not to show the ticket/caught on board). Either way, it can be made uneconomical to do it.

If it were really about fraud, they'd not sell child fares or Railcard discounts on TVMs either. Or put another way, TVMs should offer the full range of tickets for a given journey so as not to be defrauding the passenger by only offering more expensive tickets than necessary.

 

[island]

Surely it can't be so hard to program barriers to reject tickets from the nearest stations (especially somewhere like Paddington, where the mainline platforms are separate from the local platforms). Anyone caught with such an obviously fraudulent ticket can be treated as such (or PF if they're smart enough not to show the ticket/caught on board). Either way, it can be made uneconomical to do it.

I believe that's already done at Reading regarding tickets to/from Reading West.

Since tickets can be bought online for an arbitrary journey and picked up remotely, it is a bit pointless to stick on restrictions on TVMs. Although I suppose it stops the least sophisticated frauds.

 

[LexyBoy]

I believe that's already done at Reading regarding tickets to/from Reading West.

I think you're right - though in this case it might be easier to program in since the only tickets with destination "Reading" would be from Reading West - all other tickets have "Reading Stations". (Thinking about it though, I'm not sure about Advance tickets).

Since tickets can be bought online for an arbitrary journey and picked up remotely, it is a bit pointless to stick on restrictions on TVMs. Although I suppose it stops the least sophisticated frauds.

Not to mention that all the stations mentioned have ticket offices which would sell you the ticket (though you'd need a bit of chutzpah to ask for it).

 

[cyclebytrain]

I believe that's already done at Reading regarding tickets to/from Reading West.

Since tickets can be bought online for an arbitrary journey and picked up remotely, it is a bit pointless to stick on restrictions on TVMs. Although I suppose it stops the least sophisticated frauds.

Buying online and collecting would involve a though credit card and last time I checked, the websites keep a record of your journeys. Probably not what a serial fare evader wants. Buying with cash at the ticket office is likely to get some questions about what you're doing, whereas buying at a TVM with cash would (likely) mean CCTV recording at best.

The solution I like is to print (and encode) something on the ticket so that the barriers at the destination reject it (would make it a very similar situation to people travelling on child tickets actually).

 

[yorkie]

I'd imagine TVMs at Didcot, Reading, Maidenhead etc would be churning out a lot of Acton Main Line to Paddington tickets if this was allowed

Have you told Thetrainline and Atos Origin? We'd better ensure they are not available online too...

The solution ...

... is to check tickets on board, and not rely on barriers!

 

[cyclebytrain]

... is to check tickets on board, and not rely on barriers!

That's really only part of the solution, unless you believe humans are infallible.