Ticket routeing/validity - double check please

[Brucey]

Can I have a second pair of eyes just to check something over.

On a Bedhampton - London Zones 1-6 Travelcard Season, the following are permitted:

1. Travel via. Brighton and therefore end/break journey there

2. Travel on the Gatwick Express between VIC and GTW

3. Double back between Bedhampton and Fratton

Don't think I've missed anything here?

 

[yorkie]

In addition to direct trains, the shortest route and routes up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route, and trains shown on the National Rail journey planner, to your chosen boundary zone 6 station, the following mapped routes (taking London as the destination Routeing Point) are also valid:

Mapped routes from BEDHAMPTON to LONDON (analyse mapped routes)

• WW
• CW+LB
• CW+SC
• LP
• PD
• PD+SC
• CW+SC+LB
• CW+SD+LB

Bedhampton - Brighton - Gatwick - London is valid on maps CW+LB.

Therefore, both Brighton and Gatwick are intermediate stations on your Season ticket, so unlimited journeys between them and starting/finishing short is permitted.

So the answers to 1) and 2) are definitely yes.

As for 3), doubling-back on mapped routes is not normally permitted, though the Group Stations rule does allow doubling-back within Groups, such as Portsmouth Group, for interchange purposes when the origin & destination are outside the Group. However Bedhampton is a member of the Group, so unless I am missing something, doubling-back within the group is probably not permitted. Perhaps someone local to the area can assist...

 

[zoneking]

I wanted an annual season ticket from Guildford to London (Zones 2-6). I had to buy yesterday before fares went up.
However, the option given on route was Woking/Clandon. I also wanted an option to go via Redhill. The ticket clerk said that no such option was available. Is this a reasonable route?

I am restricted to going only via Woking or Clandon? Can I travel via Redhill? The price was £3378 and it seems silly to pay such a lot of money and not have freedom of route choice.

 

[John @ home]

I wanted an annual season ticket from Guildford to London (Zones 2-6). I had to buy yesterday before fares went up.
However, the option given on route was Woking/Clandon. I also wanted an option to go via Redhill. The ticket clerk said that no such option was available.

That is correct. The only Travelcard Season Ticket Guildford - London Zones 2-6 available is "route Clandon/Woking".

Is this a reasonable route?

The validity of tickets on National Rail is no longer defined by the concept of a "reasonable route". (London Underground still use the concept.) National Rail validity depends on "permitted routes" defined by the National Routeing Guide. The words "route Clandon/Woking" shown on the ticket restrict validity to those permitted routes which pass through Clandon or Woking.

I am restricted to going only via Woking or Clandon?

Yes.

Can I travel via Redhill?

Sorry, not with this ticket. We may be able to find one or more tickets allowing you to travel via Redhill, but probably at a different price.

 

[cjohnson]

Would a Wanborough-London Zones 2-6 season (route: Via Guildford) do the trick? It's about £2 a week more than the Guildford season, but believe it would be valid via Redhill as well.

 

[yorkie]

That is correct. The only Travelcard Season Ticket Guildford - London Zones 2-6 available is "route Clandon/Woking".The validity of tickets on National Rail is no longer defined by the concept of a "reasonable route". (London Underground still use the concept.) National Rail validity depends on "permitted routes" defined by the National Routeing Guide. The words "route Clandon/Woking" shown on the ticket restrict validity to those permitted routes which pass through Clandon or Woking.
Yes. Sorry, not with this ticket. We may be able to find one or more tickets allowing you to travel via Redhill, but probably at a different price.

Next time I suggest getting the same ticket as infobleep, Shalford-London see Does a train have to stop at starting sta of season ticket when multiple routes exist this ticket was recommended by me although at the time I was not sure if the train may have to call at Shalford, however FGW have since confirmed that the ticket will be accepted on non-stop trains.

 

[zoneking]

The difference is £244. Not sure worth it.

 

[Brucey]

Thanks yorkie. You've put my mind at rest. Just wanted to double check I wasn't making things up!

As an aside, can London Underground issue outboundary Travelcard seasons? I'm assuming they can at stations like Moorgate, but what about other stations?

 

[GarethW]

There's an easment allowing doubling back via Fratton for Portsmouth group stations of which mine, Fareham is one.

I can't remember the exact wording off the top of my head, certainly allows doubling for Fareham, Porchester and Hilsea someone like Wintonian would probably know it.

Can't imagine for one moment OP would have an issue doing Bedhampton-Fratton to start his journey.

 

[bb21]

No such easements exist according to the Routeing Guide.

 

[Brucey]

There definitely isn't a written easement. However, there appears to be a local easement amongst most staff which is probably an artefact of "any reasonable route". Even journey planners will sometimes suggest doubling back between Bedhampton and Fratton/Hilsea.

 

[bb21]

Journey planners in many instances will throw up journeys that are the fastest, which are not necessarily permitted routes. It is possible that for certain departures of the day, doubling back via Fratton is faster than waiting for the next northbound service.

 

[GarethW]

No such easements exist according to the Routeing Guide.

Then its been definitely been removed in the last year.

Wording was along the lines of
"passengers travelling from Fareham, Portchester, Hillsea ...... to Havant and stations to the east (and I think towards London) may travel via Fratton (or may double back through Fratton) I can't remember which. This easement applies in both directions".

 

[Brucey]

There is "700007 Customers travelling between Chichester and Cosham may double back between Hilsea and Fratton. This easement applies in both directions."

But it gives no mention of customers travelling to intermediate stations, neither does it permit doubling between Bedhampton and Hilsea.

 

[zoneking]

Farncombe (FNC) to Travelcard Zones 2-6
Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner where the journey can be made using only one ticket.)
12 Months £3,556.00

Wanborough (WAN) to Travelcard Zones 2-6
Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (Travel must involve passing through or changing at Guildford.)
12 Months £3,616.00

Guildford (GLD) to Travelcard Zones 2-6
Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets (Travel must involve passing through or changing at Clandon or Woking.)
Days/Months Price
12 Months £3,532.00

 

[soil]

Farncombe - London is routed 'Any Permitted'.
Guildford - London is routed 'Clandon/Woking'.

Guildford is a routeing point for Farncombe only on that basis.

Since Farncombe is one stop from Guildford, towards Havant (not on the Redhill line), it follows that a Farncombe-London ticket is therefore no more flexible than a Guildford - London ticket, and has the only additional benefit of permitting travel between Farncombe and Guildford.

As noted above Shalford is the season to go for extra flexibility, as it lies between Guildford and Dorking/Redhill.

 

[zoneking]

This is confusing.
Using the journey planner, Caterham (zone 6) to Guildford or Farncombe gives the cheapest route via Redhill. The route via Clapham Junction is costed more and says you need to buy 2 tickets (Why?)

My argument is that X to a zone 2-6 travel card must include every conceivable route to every conceivable station in zones 2-6 unless otherwise specified in the ticket (eg Clandon\Woking). It is not possible to use the journey planner for season tickets, only individual journeys.

 

[soil]

I see what you mean to an extent.

Farncombe - Z2-6 doesn't permit travel to Enfield Lock (Z6), because the route is via Z1.

Permitted routes from Guildford to London are:

Guildford - Epsom - Clapham Junction - Victoria/Waterloo
Guildford - Woking - Clapham Junction - Victoria/Waterloo
Guildford - Epsom - Sutton/Croydon - Victoria/Waterloo/Blackfriars/London Bridge via any intevening stations

The obvious routes NOT permitted are via Redhill and stations north of the Woking-Clapham Junction line (so via the Kingston loop, or via Virginia Water)

I note the following from the season ticket calculator:
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/seasonticket/search
Guildford - Catherham suggests

Z5-6 via Epsom (so Guildford - Epsom - West Croydon, East Croydon - Caterham, which is all z5-6)
Z5-6 via Surbiton (Guildford - Cobham - Surbiton or Guildford - Woking - Surbiton, but from there you'd have to go via Wimbledon, z3, as a minimum, so I don't see how this is valid)
Z5-6 via Virginia Water (same issue, you would have to go via z3, so doesn't seem to be valid)
Z5-6 via Redhill (ok)
Z1-6 via Clandon/Woking (you'd go Guildford - Clapham Junction - Caterham, so I have no idea why they say you need z1-6)

So there really isn't any reliable info here on ticketing with zonal season tickets.

 

[bb21]

Farncombe - Z2-6 doesn't permit travel to Enfield Lock (Z6), because the route is via Z1.

Not via Zone 1 and perfectly permitted if going via the orbital route on LO.

 

[34D]

In addition to direct trains, the shortest route and routes up to 3 miles longer than the shortest route, and trains shown on the National Rail journey planner, to your chosen boundary zone 6 station, the following mapped routes (taking London as the destination Routeing Point) are also valid

This is confusing.
Using the journey planner, Caterham (zone 6) to Guildford or Farncombe gives the cheapest route via Redhill. The route via Clapham Junction is costed more and says you need to buy 2 tickets (Why?)

My argument is that X to a zone 2-6 travel card must include every conceivable route to every conceivable station in zones 2-6 unless otherwise specified in the ticket (eg Clandon\Woking).

I see what you mean to an extent.

Farncombe - Z2-6 doesn't permit travel to Enfield Lock (Z6), because the route is via Z1.

Not via Zone 1 and perfectly permitted if going via the orbital route on LO.

Surely "any zone 6 boundary station" has to be relevant to a journey to London, though. The London rail/tube map may be useful to posters here.

There would be a theoretical route from Guildford to Enfield Lock (via Birmingham and Peterborough) (choosing Enfield Lock as an intercept station, so not passing any of zones 2-6) but that wouldn't be valid, reasonable or appropriate.

That said, I can't find anything online (and I've only done a quick search) about how to determine what an appropriate zone 6 intercept point ought to be.

Or does one simply select ones chosen destination station in zone 2-6 (or whatever) and look at the permitted routes from origin to it?

I do wonder whether a section about this would be useful in Section 5.9 of the Rail UK Guide to Fares and Ticketing?

 

[maniacmartin]

I raised a similar question a whole ago in this thread, and was drawn to OwlMan's post in this thread.

There is virtually no passenger-facing information on boundary zone tickets, which can be very useful sometimes

 

[LexyBoy]

There would be a theoretical route from Guildford to Enfield Lock (via Birmingham and Peterborough) (choosing Enfield Lock as an intercept station, so not passing any of zones 2-6) but that wouldn't be valid, reasonable or appropriate.

Mapped routes (taking RPs as Guildford and Tottenham Hale) are LONDON and WX+TS, both of which require travel through Z1.

There is a rail-only route avoiding Z1 which will be permitted by virtue of being the shortest route if routes involving the Underground can be discounted for not being rail-only.

Or does one simply select ones chosen destination station in zone 2-6 (or whatever) and look at the permitted routes from origin to it?

I belive this is correct. We have to take the guidance posted by OwlMan, which is for Boundary Zone tickets, to also apply to Travelcards in the absence of any contradicting information. This interpretation is in accord with that shown by NRE and is the most favourable to the passenger.

Travelcards are a bit more complex than BZ tickets in terms of the total route which can be taken. My opinion is that Permitted Routes for the origin-destination journey are valid, but that once within the zonal area travel must be within the zones covered. This seems like a bit of a bodge but I can't see how else a journey such as Farncombe-Enfield Lock can be made valid on a Z2-6 Travelcard, if it's treated as a single journey.

I do wonder whether a section about this would be useful in Section 5.9 of the Rail UK Guide to Fares and Ticketing?

In the absence of official guidance it's a bit hard to give concrete advice I'd think. As manicmartin hints, it can be useful sometimes for things to be left vague, as that way the interpretation more favouable to the consumer must be used.

 

[bnm]

I came back to see if Brucey got a reply to his query and got somewhat confused by recent posts. Only on reading the whole thread again did I realise it was hijacked by another query.

 

[Brucey]

I came back to see if Brucey got a reply to his query and got somewhat confused by recent posts. Only on reading the whole thread again did I realise it was hijacked by another query.

Thanks bnm. Yes, my query was answered. Although I am still slightly confused as to why doubling back between Bedhampton and Hilsea/Fratton is sometimes suggested by journey planners whilst quoting a ticket to Bedhampton.

 

[Brucey]

Back to my original question, looking at map WW.

Say I wanted to travel from Bedhampton to London, via. Eastleigh and Basingstoke.

I would need to get from Portsmouth Group (i.e. Bedhampton) to Hedge End. There are no timetabled services between these two stations, with an irregular service calling at Hilsea.

However, doubling back through Hilsea onwards to Fratton would make this journey easier.

Now, the question is, does easement 700007 also include passengers travelling from intermediate stations?

700007 Customers travelling between Chichester and Cosham may double back
between Hilsea and Fratton. This easement applies in both directions.

National Rail Enquiries does not appear to quote any journey between Bedhampton and Waterloo, via Eastleigh with just one ticket. Although between Bedhampton and Eastleigh, route planners quote journeys doubling back through Hilsea requiring a single ticket.

I'm currently in a confused state :?

 

[34D]

I read the easement as starting at station A and finishing at station B. Not including the stations in between.

 

[Brucey]

Doubling back via. Fratton is something that would be very useful to me (so it can allow Bedhampton to Eastleigh journeys).

A conductor last week announced "passengers for stations to Fareham would be best to change at Fratton" on approach to Havant.

I contacted South West Trains giving a number of scenarios for journeys I will be making in the next two months. Their response:

Thank you for your email of 26 February 2013.

I have checked the National Routeing Guide and in answer to all six of the
routes you are
permitted to do everything you ask, even the doubling back is allowed in
these instances
because Bedhampton is a member of the Portsmouth Group Routing Point and
you would
have no alternative over the doubling back via Hilsea or Fratton. Once in
the zones you
can travel via any route.

Kind Regards

So there it is, in writing, I am allowed to double back to Fratton. Whether or not it is actually valid, I care not, I have authorisation to make this journey.

In addition to this, one of the points I questioned was the one I brought up in another thread a few days ago. I asked "6. Travel from Havant (or beyond in the London direction) to Cosham (or beyond in the Eastleigh direction), on a service which does not call at Bedhampton" (Bedhampton being between Havant and Cosham, and being the origin of my ticket). Again, agreeing with the ATOC meeting mentioned by jonnycache.