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Ticket Restrictions and Starting Short

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derby

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Hi,

If I hold a CDR off-peak ticket from A-C (route A-B-C) with a restriction of 'After 9am', and want to start short at B-C, how does the restriction apply?

Would the ticket be valid on a train leaving B at 09:01? Or only on trains timed to depart A after 09:00, and therefore arriving at B later?

The restriction is:

OUTWARD TRAVEL
By any train after 0900.
 
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derby

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Not saying you're wrong, but how do you arrive at that, there must be something other than the restriction info itself? Thanks
 

Paul Kelly

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Well, the restriction text does not mention any particular stations or trains - only times, so where does station A come into it? But I'm aware that some people don't see it as so clear cut.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There was a good discussion about this sort of thing a few months ago: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1440526#post1440526
Nobody came up with a definitive answer to my Pangbourne - Oxford - Gatwick dilemma yet.
 

jkdd77

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To plagarise my own posts on the linked thread, my view is that it would be valid to travel on the 09:01 from B, assuming BoJ is permitted.

For example,a Filton Abbeywood (FIT)- Swindon (SWI) CDR takes restriction code W1 and is valid, subject to appropriate time restrictions, to start short at Bristol Parkway for travel to Swindon on a train from South Wales to Paddington.

Clearly, the "by any train except those timed to depart before 0930" restriction on this ticket must be based on the time at which the train is timed to depart from the intermediate station, in this case Bristol Parkway- after all, the train on which the passenger has travelled has not departed from Filton Abbeywood at all, and, in the case of "starting short", neither has the passenger.

The alternative interpretation, of applying the time restriction based solely on the origin station listed on the ticket, would mean that a FIT-SWI CDR is valid on any train from Bristol Parkway to Swindon that has not physically travelled via Filton Abbeywood, and I doubt very much that FGW would agree with this!

This interpretation would also produce the absurdity of a person wanting to start short, or resume, at 2100 at Truro on the 0820 from Aberdeen to Penzance being barred by a 'morning peak' restriction, (and would arguably contravene fares regulation on that particular ticket, being a regulated SVR), and would also mean that a SVR from Pilning to [anywhere] would be unusable on a weekday from any intermediate station, which would clearly be absurd.

What would happen if a passenger has not "started short", but instead made a shorter-than-advertised connection?

Some restriction codes, such as G7:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/CDR_G7.pdf
do state:
"By any train except those timed to depart the origin station shown on the ticket before [time]..."
others, such as H7, name specific stations from which restrictions apply to joining the train,
and still others, such as B3, state:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/pdfs/SVR_B3.pdf
"By any train except those scheduled to depart before [time]"
(in this case, 0900)

Since words in contracts, and presumably restriction codes, are normally assumed to have meaning, the absence of the words "the origin station" in the latter code, and the further absence of words restricting BoJ, implies to me that "starting short" at or after 0900 at an intermediate station is permitted on a "B3" CDR.

In relation to Indigo2's question in the linked thread, my answers would be:
(2) 0905 and (1) 1001 respectively.
 
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ainsworth74

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I would agree that it is vaild on any train from station B after 0900.
 

LexyBoy

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To me, the wording seems clearly to mean "no travel on any train before 0900, valid on any train (on Permitted Routes) from 0900".

If it meant trains departing the origin station, this could be written. This would also mean that there would be no restriction on trains which haven't called at the printed origin.

A related question - relevant to me on a journey yesterday:
Travelling Stroud-Reading, using the RTN portion of a Reading-Bodmin Parkway SSR with restriction YX:

RETURN TRAVEL:

Available on the following
trains and all later services:

From:
[...]
Bodmin Parkway__________0800


[...]

TRAVEL FROM STATIONS NOT
LISTED ABOVE:_Super Off-Peak
tickets from stations not
listed are valid for
connections into trains
departing as shown above.

So, what does a "connection into trains departing as shown above" look like? Does it in fact mean that I may only use trains originating from Bodmin between Swindon and Reading? In which case I would be getting the 1241 (0903 off Bodmin), but can I then use any train between Stroud and Swindon?

I think restrictions are being written in this way to make them easier to check at a glance, or because they're being directly taken from the electronic version. Whilst it does make it quicker to check for a straightforward origin-destination journey, it leaves things a lot less clear than a "arriving in London after xxxx" style text when BoJ comes into it.
 
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