Ticket Problems on a Journey

[adamcoppard]

Hi all,

Just a few questions that stem from a recent journey, where pretty much nothing went to plan. I seem to remember us discussing one of the issues before, but here goes.

1. I got to the ticket office around 20 minutes early to buy a ticket. The queue was out the ticket office, and around the corner. I stayed in the queue as it was a staffed ticketed office and thought we concluded last time that if an opportunity presented itself then you should buy the ticket before travel. Anyway, I got to the front of the queue as the train arrived, and the guy behind the window said jump on without a ticket and the guard could sell me one on board.
My question for this part: was I right to stay in the queue (the length was out of my control and I arrived as early as reasonably possible!), or could I have gone onto the platform, and the train, without any problems (I wasn't in a PF area) (I did have problems as is seen mentioned below).

2. When the train pulled up, the guard decided to kick off everybody who had bikes (due to the fact there were people standing absolutely every where). Can the guard of a train make this decision per station, or is it a policy for that train (I didn't see any signs up). In other words, could those who were on bikes and issued with a ticket in front of me have ended up not travelling at all if ALL trains passing through were deemed to busy? As an aside, would they get a refund from the TOC?

3. When the guard came around to check my tickets (there was literally no room to move to find him earlier, which I would have done if able), he seemed quite happy at first to sell me my ticket, however it all went downhill from there. My card didn't work first of all (which he originally stated was the fault of my own) and did I have alternative payment. I said no (I hadn't any as was expecting to buy a ticket from the office with my card no problem). I was then told that my origin station was staffed and I should have bought a ticket before travel. Que the story that the guy said jump on etc. Is there any way that the two (station and guard) could have relayed said info, or if the guard was in a bad mood could I have been done for not travelling without a ticket. He then tried his machine again with my card, instead this time saying it was a problem with his machine. I was then instructed to buy a ticket at my destination. Not knowing if it was barriered, had a team collecting tickets or other such was there anything the guard could give me anything to say I had tried and had the means to pay?

4. I was told to buy a ticket at my destination to cover my journey. I did so, and bought a return from Origin to Destination (which confused the ticket office no end). a) Would I have been OK buying a return Destination to Origin? Secondly, when my Origin to Destination was issued, the printed time of issuing at the bottom was after (of course) the train I got in. My question is, for my return ticket to be valid, does the Out one have to be used? From my experiences, I would say no, but I half expected, after how badly it had gone, for the guard on my return train to say it would have been impossible to do the Out journey on the ticket I produced! Similarly, and this is hypothetical, as I wouldn't try this, but, if my return portion has been stamped (and my out wasn't) could I have used my out portion again, or does that automatically become invalid as soon as the return portion is used?

Apologies for all the bold too, I just wanted to make the questions clear from a long story.

Thanks in advanced, and mods, feel free to move or split into General or Tickets, as half the thread feels in the wrong place whichever I thought to place it in.

 

[yorkie]

Hi all,

Just a few questions that stem from a recent journey, where pretty much nothing went to plan. I seem to remember us discussing one of the issues before, but here goes.

1. I got to the ticket office around 20 minutes early to buy a ticket. The queue was out the ticket office, and around the corner. I stayed in the queue as it was a staffed ticketed office and thought we concluded last time that if an opportunity presented itself then you should buy the ticket before travel. Anyway, I got to the front of the queue as the train arrived, and the guy behind the window said jump on without a ticket and the guard could sell me one on board.

Good - if they'd said anything else I would be concerned!

My question for this part: was I right to stay in the queue (the length was out of my control and I arrived as early as reasonably possible!), or could I have gone onto the platform, and the train, without any problems (I wasn't in a PF area) (I did have problems as is seen mentioned below).

I would consider a 20 minute wait to be excessive. What does the TOC who runs the station say in their Passenger Charter? I would not let a train go and would get on the train, for sure.

2. When the train pulled up, the guard decided to kick off everybody who had bikes (due to the fact there were people standing absolutely every where). Can the guard of a train make this decision per station, or is it a policy for that train (I didn't see any signs up). In other words, could those who were on bikes and issued with a ticket in front of me have ended up not travelling at all if ALL trains passing through were deemed to busy? As an aside, would they get a refund from the TOC?

If you can reveal the operator, origin, and destination of the train, then I may be able to work out the answer.

Most DMU trains only allow 2 bikes per train, and any more than 2 could be 'kicked off'. If the train is reserveable, and it is company policy to only allow reservations, then anyone without a reservation could be 'kicked off'.

3. When the guard came around to check my tickets (there was literally no room to move to find him earlier, which I would have done if able), he seemed quite happy at first to sell me my ticket, however it all went downhill from there. My card didn't work first of all (which he originally stated was the fault of my own) and did I have alternative payment. I said no (I hadn't any as was expecting to buy a ticket from the office with my card no problem). I was then told that my origin station was staffed and I should have bought a ticket before travel. Que the story that the guy said jump on etc. Is there any way that the two (station and guard) could have relayed said info, or if the guard was in a bad mood could I have been done for not travelling without a ticket.

If the guard attempted to go straight to an MG11, then I think we can safely say that the TOC would lose in court (though I'd immediately seek witnesses at the station and ask if they could give me their details to be a witness). If a UPFN, then appealing it should be successful (but, again, I'd seek witnesses).

Sadly some guards do get power-mad. It's a small minority, and they give the profession an undeserved bad name but they do exist, I've dealt with a particularly nasty one on Chiltern and he lost that battle.

He then tried his machine again with my card, instead this time saying it was a problem with his machine. I was then instructed to buy a ticket at my destination. Not knowing if it was barriered, had a team collecting tickets or other such was there anything the guard could give me anything to say I had tried and had the means to pay?

Not sure, but the barrier staff (if they exist) could always call the station you boarded at to check the situation. I'd insist that they did, if they were not prepared to believe me.

4. I was told to buy a ticket at my destination to cover my journey. I did so, and bought a return from Origin to Destination (which confused the ticket office no end). a) Would I have been OK buying a return Destination to Origin?

If there were machines and no person, then that would have to be the solution. But as staff were there, you bought the right ticket.

Secondly, when my Origin to Destination was issued, the printed time of issuing at the bottom was after (of course) the train I got in. My question is, for my return ticket to be valid, does the Out one have to be used?

You did use the outward, but there is no compulsion to use the outward. I see absolutely nothing in the conditions that states that a customer wanting to travel from York to Peterborough one-way today could not, for example, buy an Off Peak Day Rtn from Peterborough to York and immediately discard the outward portion. (That is cheaper than a single, because our fares structure is ludicrous).

From my experiences, I would say no, but I half expected, after how badly it had gone, for the guard on my return train to say it would have been impossible to do the Out journey on the ticket I produced!

I doubt they would look at the time & date the ticket was issued, and there is no compulsion to use the outward ticket, and you did nothing wrong anyway.

Similarly, and this is hypothetical, as I wouldn't try this, but, if my return portion has been stamped (and my out wasn't) could I have used my out portion again, or does that automatically become invalid as soon as the return portion is used?

No, you can't. In theory you could be asked to produce the return portion as the outward is only valid with an unused return portion. Note that no guard is realistically ever going to ask to see the return portion UNLESS you were on an Anytime ticket travelling on an outward portion on a subsequent day after the first day of validity - in which case I would expect them to!

Apologies for all the bold too, I just wanted to make the questions clear from a long story.

Thanks in advanced, and mods, feel free to move or split into General or Tickets, as half the thread feels in the wrong place whichever I thought to place it in.

No problem, and Fares, Ticketing & Routeing is indeed the right place!

 

[bnm]

I had a conductor on my local line this past week all but accuse me of trying to avoid a fare because my debit card wouldn't work. Recently changed banks and I've discovered that the Chip and Pin machines used by my local TOC do not support some types of VISA debit cards. I'm fully aware that Solo and Electron are not supported, but this was a new one on me.

Apparently it was my fault the Chip and Pin wouldn't accept my card. I hadn't even got as far as entering my pin so it was not an issue regarding lack of funds or fraudulent use. I called my bank whilst still on the train and was told that there are some wireless Chip and Pin readers that will not accept my banks' (and others) VISA debit cards. An issue with the machines, not an issue with the customers card.

Told to get off at the next station or face a UPFN. Luckily I had sufficient cash to get a ticket to my interchange station - where I purchased an overdistance excess (with my card of course - no problems) although doing this meant I missed my planned connection.

Following day I used my card again, with a different TOCs onboard Chip and Pin (different model) with no problems.

A call to the first TOCs Customer Service told me it was my banks fault and not theirs. :roll:

Another call to my bank and I'm told it's the retailers fault not theirs. :roll:

 

[island]

What would have been wrong with taking a UPFN? It would be the same fare.

As I've mentioned a few times before on this forum, there are a few banks whose cards are all set to require online authorization for all transactions, and most banks' basic accounts do this too. This is not entirely unreasonable as it prevents unplanned overdrafts. The result is that the cards will automatically decline on all mobile transactions. It would be nice if this was publicized more.

 

[Flamingo]

You did use the outward, but there is no compulsion to use the outward. I see absolutely nothing in the conditions that states that a customer wanting to travel from York to Peterborough one-way today could not, for example, buy an Off Peak Day Rtn from Peterborough to York and immediately discard the outward portion. (That is cheaper than a single, because our fares structure is ludicrous).

I doubt they would look at the time & date the ticket was issued, and there is no compulsion to use the outward ticket, and you did nothing wrong anyway.

No, you can't. In theory you could be asked to produce the return portion as the outward is only valid with an unused return portion. Note that no guard is realistically ever going to ask to see the return portion UNLESS you were on an Anytime ticket travelling on an outward portion on a subsequent day after the first day of validity - in which case I would expect them to!

Regarding return tickets, the NRCOC say

17. Using a return ticket
A return ticket (including a two-part return ticket) is only valid for the outward journey shown on that ticket if the ticket is completely unused. You may not use the outward part of a return ticket after you have used the return part.

So if you buy a return ticket, and only use the return section, then the outward section is no use. I've used this once with someone who I was fairly certain was trying to get two journeys out of an unstamped "out" ticket sold the day before - I asked them to see the return portion, to be told "It was swallowed by the machine last night".
"Gotcha!"

 

[strange6]

Regarding return tickets, the NRCOC say

So if you buy a return ticket, and only use the return section, then the outward section is no use. I've used this once with someone who I was fairly certain was trying to get two journeys out of an unstamped "out" ticket sold the day before - I asked them to see the return portion, to be told "It was swallowed by the machine last night".
"Gotcha!"

That Flamingo is not a daft chappie. Are you appreciated by your boss?

 

[Flamingo]

I had a conductor on my local line this past week all but accuse me of trying to avoid a fare because my debit card wouldn't work. Recently changed banks and I've discovered that the Chip and Pin machines used by my local TOC do not support some types of VISA debit cards. I'm fully aware that Solo and Electron are not supported, but this was a new one on me.

Apparently it was my fault the Chip and Pin wouldn't accept my card. I hadn't even got as far as entering my pin so it was not an issue regarding lack of funds or fraudulent use. I called my bank whilst still on the train and was told that there are some wireless Chip and Pin readers that will not accept my banks' (and others) VISA debit cards. An issue with the machines, not an issue with the customers card.

Told to get off at the next station or face a UPFN. Luckily I had sufficient cash to get a ticket to my interchange station - where I purchased an overdistance excess (with my card of course - no problems) although doing this meant I missed my planned connection.

Following day I used my card again, with a different TOCs onboard Chip and Pin (different model) with no problems.

A call to the first TOCs Customer Service told me it was my banks fault and not theirs. :roll:

Another call to my bank and I'm told it's the retailers fault not theirs. :roll:

I've been told that some cards are set up by the bank that they need telephone authorisation for transactions. Not a problem (or even noticeable) when used in a "landline" terminal, but automatically rejected by the Dyone.
So it's the banks fault, IMHO. They are the ones who have told ATOC that chip and pin only will be accepted, not swipes, and they are the ones who put the restrictions on accounts without telling their customer so the chip and pin will NOT work.

(Just noticed, Island bet me to it! )

If it's a large amount, I'll either ring for authorisation (time consuming, but I'm not letting that commission get away from me with a Full Open Return!), or issue a UPFN (usually for the cheapest fare, not the full open).

If the passenger has joined at somewhere where they should have bought a ticket (especially if barriered), then I'm a bit less sympathetic and will tell them they have to get off and buy at the next manned station.

The problem is that once the card has been rejected by the Dyone, the option of swiping it has gone, as it will then be rejected. This loophole is being used in lieu of the "electron/solo" scam, where fare-dodgers say "It's all I have". I have a certain gent on my patch who I have had a few times in the last fortnight who always produces the same card, knowing it will be rejected. I've taken to throwing him off at the first opportunity (much to his very vocal disgust!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That Flamingo is not a daft chappie. Are you appreciated by your boss?

No, he has to deal with the complaints!

 

[island]

If you swipe a chip card (any chip card) without having gotten voice authorisation then the transaction will go through fine as long as it's under a hundred quid or so, and then in a few weeks' time the merchant will get an automatic letter from their acquirer (the bank that processes their card payments) saying the money's going to be taken back because it should have been processed as a chip transaction.

I have a few choice comments I'd like to make about the banks' contributions to this, but as I work for one, I think I'd better not (although if you're at the meet on Tuesday feel free to ask me!)

 

[Flamingo]

I'm working Tuesday .

So let me get this straight - if the card is swiped, the bank won't give the money, whether it's in the customers account or not?

 

[island]

It's at the bank's discretion. If you swipe a chip card the transaction will go through normally on a signature and the merchant will be paid, but the bank can at its discretion chargeback the transaction (i.e. take the money back) within I think 120 days (without giving any reason other than "liability shift for EMV card", which is bank speak for "you should have used the chip"). Same applies if you have a transaction declined for any other reason and try to put it through again and it goes through. Both of these are the same in online and offline environments for what it's worth. Several banks (no names) do a database sweep for these transactions and charge them back en masse

Hence if a merchant is tendered a chip card, and the transaction is refused/referred, he should either ask for another method of payment or phone the voice authorisation line. I generally suggest the latter if you have time, especially if you think the passenger's up to no good, because if it turns out the card has been cancelled due to being stolen or because the customers account is out of order, you'll be told to retain the card and will often get a fifty quid reward payment

 

[Flamingo]

I've often been told "Declined", but never told to retain the card. It usually just says something like "tell them to ask their bank why".

Supplementary question - when the bank "claws back" the money from the merchant, does it then refund / not charge the customer, or does it just keep the money as an "admin charge"?

 

[island]

I've often been told "Declined", but never told to retain the card. It usually just says something like "tell them to ask their bank why".

The bank could be done for libel and/or data protection breaches if it tells you anything more (has happened with regards to cheques, not sure if it's happened for a card). Requests for a merchant to retain a card are not done all too often.

Supplementary question - when the bank "claws back" the money from the merchant, does it then refund / not charge the customer, or does it just keep the money as an "admin charge"?

It will keep the money. And may also charge the merchant an admin charge

Supplementary observation: there exist card terminals which can have SIM cards fitted and can call in for authorisation. In fact I believe the Avantix Metro (used on HEX) can do this. But given that PORTIS had a lifetime of 20 years I reckon they'll still be using Avantix Mobiles in 2021!

And in any case, you'll probably be going through a tunnel when someone wants to pay with an awkward card

 

[Flamingo]

The bank could be done for libel and/or data protection breaches if it tells you anything more (has happened with regards to cheques, not sure if it's happened for a card). Requests for a merchant to retain a card are not done all too often.

So we'd better not keep it of our own bat, then?

It will keep the money. And may also charge the merchant an admin charge

Jeez, and people complain that the Railways rip people off! The banks can give lessons in how to screw people over!

Supplementary observation: there exist card terminals which can have SIM cards fitted and can call in for authorisation. In fact I believe the Avantix Metro (used on HEX) can do this. But given that PORTIS had a lifetime of 20 years I reckon they'll still be using Avantix Mobiles in 2021!

And in any case, you'll probably be going through a tunnel when someone wants to pay with an awkward card

Naturally - it always happens if I want to check a card!

 

[adamcoppard]

I must say, the experience with the guard often made it feel as if he thought I was trying it on which I felt was a bit cheeky!!

The operator was FGW.

Thanks for all your help Yorkie.

It did feel as if I was stuck between my bank and the TOC, I remember a talk about my banks card not working on the trains before on here. However, I shouldn't have to carry around cash and a card with me whenever I want to go anywhere! I had means to pay, the railway didn't take it.

Just for my curiostiry, as Flamingo was saying, how far could the guard have gone if he wanted, far enough that I could have ended up at a station in the middle of no where?

 

[island]

I suspect the most likely result would have been an unpaid fare notice, giving you (I think) 10 days to pay the fare and that would be the end of it. Worst possible would be the guard putting you off the train if he thought you were totally trying it on, but TOCs would be very slow to do that if there was any chance you were genuine in order to avoid the bad publicity!

 

[Flamingo]

It's against the rules to kick anybody off at an unmanned station, so worst case scenario would have been having to buy a ticket and catch the next train. I have issued UPFN's in a similar situation (most recently today!), but the chap in question today had the opportunity to buy before boarding but didn't.