Ticket office discretion

[Philip]

Some ticket offices can offer discretion on certain ticket restrictions depending on the circumstances, such waiving admin fees, zero fare excesses, not applying minimum fares on railcards, selling off peak fares at peak times etc. I'd be interested to know your opinion on this, I don't mean doing it all the time but rather in certain circumstances where doing it by the book might seem overly officious and unnecessary. Do you consider it good customer service to use discretions and sometimes 'let people off' in the ways I've described?

 

[zwk500]

It's a balance. Letting something go might be good for one customer but then they tell their mates who expect the same treatment, or the person behind them in the queue hears it and demands the same special offer.

When there's a specific set of circumstances, like correcting an honest mistake or actions beyond an individual's control (like a family medical emergency necessitating immediate travel) then I can understand discretion being applied.

 

[skyhigh]

not applying minimum fares on railcards, selling off peak fares at peak times etc.

If you're going to do that, you need to provide written authority to travel otherwise you're setting the passenger up for problems later in their journey.

 

[Philip]

If you're going to do that, you need to provide written authority to travel otherwise you're setting the passenger up for problems later in their journey.

Potentially not if the passenger had already travelled and was paying for the railcard discounted single at the end of their journey, or wanted a return ticket and had travelled out in peak, was paying for the ticket at the 'out' destination, but wanted to return in off peak and so the clerk issued an off peak return.

 

[Halwynd]

Discretion on waiving admin fees with fair cause is probably a good thing. Not applying minimum fares might lead to a passenger being picked up by other staff during the journey or at the destination.

Selling Off Peak tickets during the peak? Apologies, I'm not sure whether you mean for use during the peak, or whether you mean a few minutes before departure in order to catch the first off peak train? If the former, not a good idea for the same reasons as above, but a few minutes before I see no problem. Quite a few years ago I used to travel from Wigan to Manchester now and again using an Off Peak Day Return valid after 09:30. There was a train from Wigan Wallgate at 09:25 and one at 09:32. Staff at the booking office would refuse to sell Off Peak Day Returns until the 09:25 had departed. A queue would form and then it was often a scram for those at the end of the queue to catch the train. I once saw a woman slip and fall as she rushed for the 09:32 and soon learned to buy my ticket at a Virgin TVM at Wigan North Western to avoid the nonsense at Wallgate.

 

[WestAnglian]

Bishop's Stortford ticket office will sell an off-peak ticket many minutes before a TVM would if you make it clear to them which train you intend to board. If it's more than a few minutes early they'll stamp the ticket with something like RE (restrictions explained?).

 

[Philip]

Discretion on waiving admin fees with fair cause is probably a good thing. Not applying minimum fares might lead to a passenger being picked up by other staff during the journey or at the destination.

Selling Off Peak tickets during the peak? Apologies, I'm not sure whether you mean for use during the peak, or whether you mean a few minutes before departure in order to catch the first off peak train? If the former, not a good idea for the same reasons as above, but a few minutes before I see no problem. Quite a few years ago I used to travel from Wigan to Manchester now and again using an Off Peak Day Return valid after 09:30. There was a train from Wigan Wallgate at 09:25 and one at 09:32. Staff at the booking office would refuse to sell Off Peak Day Returns until the 09:25 had departed. A queue would form and then it was often a scram for those at the end of the queue to catch the train. I once saw a woman slip and fall as she rushed for the 09:32 and soon learned to buy my ticket at a Virgin TVM at Wigan North Western to avoid the nonsense at Wallgate.

In circumstances where there is no third party involvement, ie. a passenger who is paying at the end of their journey and thus it is all down to the ticket clerk, would it be good customer service to offer the off peak fare/railcard discount even if they had travelled on a peak service; or if it's a 'regular' who has forgotten their railcard but the clerk knows that they have one that is in date?

Another example which I encountered recently - a passenger had travelled to their destination with TOD collection tickets dated the previous day. However, they had printed the tickets the morning they travelled and it was a simple error on behalf of the passenger's employer in booking the ticket for the wrong day, so it was clear that there was no case of fraud on the passenger's part. Rather than charging a new ticket or an admin fee, the ticket clerks did a zero-fare excess to issue a ticket for the correct date, to allow the passenger to get through the barriers without having to pay extra for the initial mistake.

 

[MotCO]

I think the other issue is of setting a precedent. If a ticket office member of staff 'turned a blind eye' on one occasion, the passenger may expect it to happen on other occasions either with the same or different member of staff. On the first instance, the member of staff may be showing discretion or helping the passenger out, but this not should also be assumed for other occasions.

 

[zwk500]

In circumstances where there will be no third party involvement, ie. a passenger who is paying at the end of their journey and thus it is all down to the ticket clerk, would it be good customer service to offer the off peak fare/railcard discount even if they had travelled on a peak service;

Personally I'd say no. The better customer service overall is to charge the correct fare unless there's a good reason not to. Letting the customer off in this way could cause issues if they try and do so again but get a less lenient member of staff.

or if it's a 'regular' who has forgotten their railcard but the clerk knows they have a one that is in date?

I'd be more lenient on this, although isn't there a 'forgotten railcard' process that covers exactly this situation.

Another example which I encountered recently - a passenger had travelled to their destination with TOD collection tickets dated the previous day. However, they had printed the tickets the morning they travelled and it was a simple error on behalf of the passenger's employer in booking the ticket for the wrong day so it was clear that there was no case of fraud on the passenger's part. Rather than charging a new ticket or an admin fee, the ticket clerks did a zero-fare excess to issue a ticket for the correct date to allow the passenger to get through the barriers without having to pay extra for the initial mistake.

This is sensible customer service - a genuine error that caused no loss to the railway. Sensible option not to charge the admin fee.

 

[Haywain]

This is sensible customer service - a genuine error that caused no loss to the railway. Sensible option not to charge the admin fee.

Although they could put the ticket in for a refund on the basis that thry couldn't possibly have used it as they hadn't collected it.

 

[zwk500]

Although they could put the ticket in for a refund on the basis that thry couldn't possibly have used it as they hadn't collected it.

Surely a Zero-fare excess shows the ticket was used?

The alternative would have been to just refund the ticket, waiving the admin fee, and charge for the new one.

 

[Hadders]

not applying minimum fares on railcards

Three things wrong with this:

- if the passenger could het into trouble if they travelled with a ticket for which the minimum fare hasn't been applied
- it deprives the railway and your employer of revenue
- passengers will expect it in future which potentially causes more problems, conflict and mis-understanding in the future

 

[AlterEgo]

Discretion is highly subjective and contextual and without an example it’s hard to say whether one agrees with “discretion” or not.

 

[Halwynd]

In circumstances where there is no third party involvement, ie. a passenger who is paying at the end of their journey and thus it is all down to the ticket clerk, would it be good customer service to offer the off peak fare/railcard discount even if they had travelled on a peak service; or if it's a 'regular' who has forgotten their railcard but the clerk knows that they have one that is in date?

In the first case you mention, no. It is against the rules, the ticket clerk could leave themself open to trouble from their employer, and it would be unfair on those who pay the peak fare. In the case of the railcard, as long as it is at the end of a journey and the ticket clerk knows 100% that the passenger holds a valid railcard, well... I'd say that was up to the ticket clerk and I probably wouldn't have an opinion either way.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Both the mininum fare and selling off peak tickets in peak are pointless unless accompanied by written permission. Anyone that does that regularly will soon be asked why.

 

[transportphoto]

Some ticket offices can offer discretion on certain ticket restrictions depending on the circumstances, such waiving admin fees, zero fare excesses, not applying minimum fares on railcards, selling off peak fares at peak times etc.

On train staff (specifically guards) have a lot more discretion to apply than Ticket Office staff. Waiving admin fees is perhaps the best example here, others aren’t really discretionary and don’t allow much room to manoeuvre at a ticket office.

 

[PeterC]

Discretion is highly subjective and contextual and without an example it’s hard to say whether one agrees with “discretion” or not.

As a general rule I would say that customers should be treated consistently. There is always a risk that showing discretion to one customer can be interpreted as discrimination by the next if, for example, one is white and one is black.

 

[Halwynd]

As a general rule I would say that customers should be treated consistently. There is always a risk that showing discretion to one customer can be interpreted as discrimination by the next if, for example, one is white and one is black.

Very true. I'm reminded of a couple of minor incidents I witnessed about ten years ago whilst returning from London. I was travelling on a mid-evening Virgin Trains service from Euston to Preston in a First Class carriage. At Tamworth or Lichfield, I can't recall which, a white male boarded and entered First. The Guard came round for tickets immediately on departure, a brief conversation ensued and he was sent to Standard. When we arrived at Warrington a black male entered and sat in a seat adjacent to me. Again, the Guard came round immediately upon departure, the man pleaded his case by saying that he was 'only travelling to Wigan' to which the Guard responded: 'OK, just this once'.

 

[Philip]

On train staff (specifically guards) have a lot more discretion to apply than Ticket Office staff. Waiving admin fees is perhaps the best example here, others aren’t really discretionary and don’t allow much room to manoeuvre at a ticket office.

A written note and station stamp from the ticket office clerk, authorising travel, is enough to allow passengers to travel regardless of the validity of the ticket that is sold. Guards do not have the authority to overrule a stamped authorisation note to travel from the ticket office. Virgin Trains ticket office staff used to give out little cards authorising any permitted travel for passengers holding advance tickets, they could use their discretion for the reason.

 

[BenS123]

I do remember once forgetting my railcard and having an advance ticket - the ticket office clerk at Bournemouth told me to go and get it and she would sort out a way for me to get another train, sure enough I get back and I get a "Back on Track voucher" which had "Authority to travel on SWR services" ticked.

I do believe that that is an appropriate use of discretion.

 

[TUC]

Discretion on waiving admin fees with fair cause is probably a good thing. Not applying minimum fares might lead to a passenger being picked up by other staff during the journey or at the destination.

Selling Off Peak tickets during the peak? Apologies, I'm not sure whether you mean for use during the peak, or whether you mean a few minutes before departure in order to catch the first off peak train? If the former, not a good idea for the same reasons as above, but a few minutes before I see no problem. Quite a few years ago I used to travel from Wigan to Manchester now and again using an Off Peak Day Return valid after 09:30. There was a train from Wigan Wallgate at 09:25 and one at 09:32. Staff at the booking office would refuse to sell Off Peak Day Returns until the 09:25 had departed. A queue would form and then it was often a scram for those at the end of the queue to catch the train. I once saw a woman slip and fall as she rushed for the 09:32 and soon learned to buy my ticket at a Virgin TVM at Wigan North Western to avoid the nonsense at Wallgate.

A good reason for buying tickets online.

 

[skyhigh]

A written note and station stamp from the ticket office clerk, authorising travel, is enough to allow passengers to travel regardless of the validity of the ticket that is sold. Guards do not have the authority to overrule a stamped authorisation note to travel from the ticket office.

As ticket office staff, you do need to be careful though.

Someone who you know has a railcard but forgotten it on this occasion, that's fair enough. Authorising travel on a later service with an Advance because there's been traffic delays due to an accident outside the station, that's good customer service.

But your job is to sell the correct ticket. Selling someone an off-peak and giving them permission to travel in peak or bypassing a minimum fare could be viewed as denying the company revenue they are due. If a guard or RPI decides to withdraw the ticket and note authorising travel for investigation and give the passenger a zero fare ticket (acknowledging they have done nothing wrong) it could lead to awkward conversations for yourself. Same applies if the passenger returns the next day and expects your colleague to sell them the discounted ticket. Or the passenger then goes on to buy off peaks via the app and when challenged on a peak service shows your note of authority and claims "well the man at the ticket office told me I could".

Don't forget that the future of ticket offices is uncertain. A TVM will not authorise people to travel on a cheaper ticket for 'good customer service'. You don't want allegations of misconduct levelled at you.

 

[jon81uk]

On train staff (specifically guards) have a lot more discretion to apply than Ticket Office staff. Waiving admin fees is perhaps the best example here, others aren’t really discretionary and don’t allow much room to manoeuvre at a ticket office.

Back in the 90s when travelling to college if I forgot my season ticket the guard would often recognise that I did the same route daily and use discretion to no worry about one 17 year old who travelled that journey every day.
Nowadays not sure how likely that is to happen.

 

[LowLevel]

A written note and station stamp from the ticket office clerk, authorising travel, is enough to allow passengers to travel regardless of the validity of the ticket that is sold. Guards do not have the authority to overrule a stamped authorisation note to travel from the ticket office. Virgin Trains ticket office staff used to give out little cards authorising any permitted travel for passengers holding advance tickets, they could use their discretion for the reason.

What is possible is however for the guard to report the clerk should they feel that inappropriate or frivolous authority is being given.

I once (informally) had a word with a station supervisor about a gateline assistant who was trying to help a customer following a cancellation. They had a Northern Only ticket from Nottingham to Leeds and Northern's advice was to wait for their next train in an hour.

The gateline assistant wrote out an endorsement for the customer to travel with EMT from Nottingham to Grantham and VTEC from Grantham to Leeds. They didn't really have any business committing VTEC (who didn't even serve their station) in writing to carry a 3rd party TOC's passenger to save them a bit of time.

I spoke to our control too (again informally) and they made arrangements with VTEC for the passenger to be passed on their train.

This is where it is important to understand what is reasonable before acting when trying to be helpful.

 

[Halwynd]

A good reason for buying tickets online.

Indeed. The last time I used the TVM at Wigan North Western you could also use it to collect tickets bought online via TOD - I used it myself many a time.