Ticket Office Close - Correct Course of Action?

[rob.rjt]

I was attempting to travel from Didcot to Oxford on the 20:25 today and would return later this evening. I got to the station to buy my ticket and the ticket office was closed but the ticket vending machines were open.

The ticket I wished to purchase was the Oxford Evening Out for £3 (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/prf5d26b54764470855429d0ef67a73c.aspx) which was not available on the ticket vending machines. The cheapest return ticket was the off peak day return for £5.80. The trains seem to be DOO, so no guard is available

What was my best course of action?

1a) Buy the £5.80 return and attempt to make a claim after the fact for the £2.80 difference
1b) Buy the £5.80 return and attempt to exchange it for a cheaper ticket on arrival Oxford
2) Buy no ticket and attempt to buy the £3 ticket at Oxford when stopped at the barriers at Oxford
3) Buy a £2.70 single to Appleford and attempt to pay the £0.30 difference when stopped at the barriers at Oxford
4) Some other course of action.

The reason for the question is that, normally, I would travel to Oxford using a Network Railcard discounted ticket (£3.85 rtn) but I had not brought my railcard as there was no discount on the Oxford Evening Out offer. I could have returned home and got the railcard at the cost of a mile long walk and half an hour late arrival. Could I have claimed the £0.85 difference anywhere?

In the end, as I was not too bothered about missing what I would have gone to, I took the sensible option of stopping at a shop and buying beer to drink at home.

Thanks for any light that can be shed

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You should purchase a ticket valid for you to make atleast part of the journey and exchange it later for the ticket you require (3).

 

[Urban Gateline]

Officially you are supposed to buy a ticket from the TVM, I think option 3 would suffice. Although the reality is that many onboard and Revenue/Ticket Office staff do not like excessing such tickets to the one you wanted and just advise to buy at the first opportunity. Especially options 1a and 1b I can't see them working!

It is an interesting subject as there are grey areas surrounding it, maybe some other posters on here can provide a more definitive answer!

 

[rob.rjt]

Thanks for that advice. It is interesting as I would have thought that one of option 1a or 1b would be the way forward as it is the only one which leaves me with a valid ticket all the way to the first staffed station.

Assuming option 3 is the correct course of action, what would a customer at Radley, Tackley or Kings Sutton (all unstaffed IIRC) do - again assuming a return to Oxford - as the single fares to the next station towards Oxford (i.e. in the direction the customer wants to travel) are all more than £3?

Given that this is, in effect, a rover ticket, could a passenger at one of the stations mentioned above purchase a ticket in the wring direction (all less than £3) and excess at Oxford?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Thanks for that advice. It is interesting as I would have thought that one of option 1a or 1b would be the way forward as it is the only one which leaves me with a valid ticket all the way to the first staffed station.

Assuming option 3 is the correct course of action, what would a customer at Radley, Tackley or Kings Sutton (all unstaffed IIRC) do - again assuming a return to Oxford - as the single fares to the next station towards Oxford (i.e. in the direction the customer wants to travel) are all more than £3?

Given that this is, in effect, a rover ticket, could a passenger at one of the stations mentioned above purchase a ticket in the wring direction (all less than £3) and excess at Oxford?

They are good points you raise, and I have ammended my reply as Option 2 is actually questionably acceptable in such cases as you should not have to pay out more than the fare of the ticket you required.

Buying a ticket in reverse direction is excessable in theory, however I suspect Staff will not be happy with the extra work.

I believe the reasoning behind having to purchase some sort of ticket before boarding is so that you do not deprive the TOC of any revenue, as it may be the case that you arrive at Oxford and the barriers are open, so what would stop you or any other ticketless passenger walking out without paying the fare even if the ticket office there was still open?

 

[CC 72100]

Action 2 in the original post is similar to what I have been advised by FGW staff to do. Although mine relates to a different area (Devon) and in this case would be dealing with a TM on the train (no DOO down there) they have informed me that should I wish to purchase an evening rover that is not available on the TVMs from an unstaffed or station with no open ticket office, that I can board the train ticketless and buy on board. Suffice to say that said conversation was screenshotted with date. After all that, I haven't actually found myself in that situation since...

 

[maniacmartin]

Option 3 is the official correct action according to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. if you want to cover your back, this is all you are required to do.

If there is no opportunity to purchase a ticket that cover part of the journey you need to make, I would board without a ticket, and pay at the earliest opportunity. I certainly wouldn't be buying a ticket in the opposite direction as it could end up being a lot of hassle to exchange for the correct one.

 

[yorkie]

Ask them, and let us know the outcome.

Action 2 in the original post is similar to what I have been advised by FGW staff to do.

They ask you to pay more? In that case forward the case ref number to Passenger Focus and refer the matter to them. Let us know how you get on.

I'd be interested to hear how much extra money passengers are required to bring/allocate for a journey, and what justification they have for that, and what rule allows them to do that.

 

[Temple Meads]

If there is no opportunity to purchase a ticket that cover part of the journey you need to make

What if no ticket is available to cover even part of the journey at a lesser price than the ranger? (Such as Tiverton Parkway - Exeter St Davids £5.20 vice £5.00)

 

[maniacmartin]

3. Where the full range of tickets is not available

If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the
range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. You must then, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel.

This would imply that that you would have to overpay in that situation. However, I personally would be inclined to travel without a ticket, as I know that getting refunds out of TOCs can be a time-consuming process. I always carry an RTV around, which I decide I want to pay with when faced with such situations.

 

[Urban Gateline]

This would imply that that you would have to overpay in that situation. However, I personally would be inclined to travel without a ticket, as I know that getting refunds out of TOCs can be a time-consuming process. I always carry an RTV around, which I decide I want to pay with when faced with such situations.

This is a very sensible approach to be honest, and I agree with refunds being difficult, as I mentioned earlier, many staff will be reluctant to do them or cause a fuss over doing them!

 

[sonic2009]

No ticket barriers at Didcot Parkway tonight then?

 

[furlong]

If there was a Penalty Fares poster and no Permit to Travel machine, then they are typically phrased carefully to leave no need to buy any ticket before travelling if the machine doesn't sell the ticket you want. (If you have a camera phone, take a picture of the poster.)

If the ticket office is closed and you cannot buy the ticket you want from a self service ticket machine, you must buy a Permit to Travel (where there is a machine available) paying as much of your fare as possible.

 

[CC 72100]

They ask you to pay more? In that case forward the case ref number to Passenger Focus and refer the matter to them. Let us know how you get on.

I'd be interested to hear how much extra money passengers are required to bring/allocate for a journey, and what justification they have for that, and what rule allows them to do that.

No, sorry I may have not made myself clear here.

They advised me to board ticketless and seek out a TM on board to purchase the ticket from, as it is only available from ticket office or human staff, not machines. As I've said, the ironic thing is since they've told me to do this if I find myself in the situation where I'm after this ticket and I can't get it, I haven't actually had to use it!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If there was a Penalty Fares poster and no Permit to Travel machine, then they are typically phrased carefully to leave no need to buy any ticket before travelling if the machine doesn't sell the ticket you want. (If you have a camera phone, take a picture of the poster.)

If the ticket office is closed and you cannot buy the ticket you want from a self service ticket machine, you must buy a Permit to Travel (where there is a machine available) paying as much of your fare as possible.

If you are going to use that line of argument, you had better make sure there is no Permit to Travel machine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No ticket barriers at Didcot Parkway tonight then?

I think they can only use the ticket barriers when staff are available and if staff are available most walk up tickets should be too.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

How about this situation which I may find myself in when doing Cheshire Day Ranger trips.

I board at Capenhurst, there is a TVM but you are unable to purchase a Cheshire Day Ranger from it, so I buy a Child single to Chester (£1.30) then the train is slightly delayed so I only have 3 minutes to make it to my connecting train (even if it was on time, I would only have 7 which I know is more than the minimum connection time, it can still be tight going out and to the ticket office where there is likely to be a queue) so I just wait the 3 minutes and board the train, am I able to buy a Cheshire Day Ranger off the guard and only pay £9.20, having paid £1.30 for my single to Chester? Or would he have to charge me the full £10.50?

Thanks

Sorry for my sparse knowledge in fares and so on, I have tried looking at past threads but can't really find a definitive answer

 

[maniacmartin]

I would say that you should be able to pay just the £9.20

 

[MK Tom]

1a) Buy the £5.80 return and attempt to make a claim after the fact for the £2.80 difference

This is the option I chose when overcharged for a Northwich-Rochdale return by a (helpful) ticket window man whose machine didn't have the ticket I wanted on it. I wrote a polite email to Northern thanking the dude and asking for my £1.68 and instead they sent me £30 in free travel anywhere!! So that was a day in Hastings for free.

Sometimes just taking it on the chin in the short term massively pays for itself later.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I board at Capenhurst, there is a TVM but you are unable to purchase a Cheshire Day Ranger from it, so I buy a Child single to Chester (£1.30) then the train is slightly delayed so I only have 3 minutes to make it to my connecting train (even if it was on time, I would only have 7 which I know is more than the minimum connection time, it can still be tight going out and to the ticket office where there is likely to be a queue) so I just wait the 3 minutes and board the train, am I able to buy a Cheshire Day Ranger off the guard and only pay £9.20, having paid £1.30 for my single to Chester? Or would he have to charge me the full £10.50?....

Depends who you ask.

I believe the exact wording of the NRCoC is "....at soon as is reasonably practicable....". Some would argue there was no reasonably practicable opportunity at Chester, others will argue there was.

Some might even change "reasonably practicable" into "reasonable" and argue that it is not reasonable to do so at Chester in that situation, others will disagree.

 

[vjm1975]

I recall the advice I had off Merseyrail when it wasn't possible to get the Day Saver from the TVM's at unmanned stations :-

Was told, either buy the more expensive anytime return, and change tickets and be refunded the difference at destination, or buy a single to the first manned station, leave the train and change the ticket there, paying the difference, then board the next train. Suffice to say after taking option 1 and having great difficulty changing my ticket at my destination, I used alternative methods of transport until the Day Saver became available to purchase from the TVMs.