Ticket Not Collected From The Machine (Company paid)

[DazNEUK]

Hi All

I got delayed on the underground for my booked Grand Central Train from Kings Cross to Eaglescliffe so I had about 2 minutes to get on the train upon arrival and I also had a flat phone battery.

Once on the train and charged I showed the lady my booking which showed the booking etc. I really didn't expect a problem but she insisted on giving me an unpaid fare notice for not having a ticket despite me showing confirmation of my booking.

I have appealed sending my booking etc, surely as I have a paid ticket for that amount for that journey will common sense prevail and they'll just cancel it out with the booking?

It's such a disappointing experience when it's obvious it's a genuine booking.
The sooner the industry moves to e-tickets to avoid genuine people being unfairly penalised.

Thanks

Darren

 

[bb21]

In actual fact, sorry to say, but she is correct. Showing your proof of purchase is not normally sufficient.

What type of ticket did you book? Was it an Advance fare? Off-Peak?

E-tickets will not be the answer to everything, and will bring with them their own problems.

 

[DazNEUK]

It was and a standard anytime for the service I got at 16:50 (I only booked it last night my my employer too).

My notice is for £84.60 which is the same price of the booked ticket.

 

[Flamingo]

Like flat batteries...

 

[DazNEUK]

It was an advance single booked by my employer last night for that train (16:50).

It's got my name on the booking, I had ID etc.
I don't see why they can't accept that booking especially as it's all online.
From experience will common sense prevail?

 

[bb21]

It was and a standard anytime for the service I got at 16:50 (I only booked it last night my my employer too).

My notice is for £84.60 which is the same price of the booked ticket.

The problem with showing just the booking confirmation is that you could have easily given the ticket to someone else to use while using the confirmation yourself. Of course I am not saying that it is what you did, but that is how this could be viewed by the guard, and this would be easily open to abuse by those who are less than scrupulous should booking confirmation be accepted.

Unfortunately while I can sympathise with your predicament, apart from appealing to their better nature, I am unable to suggest anything that would help you off this UPFN.

It was an advance single booked by my employer last night for that train (16:50).

It's got my name on the booking, I had ID etc.
I don't see why they can't accept that booking especially as it's all online.
From experience will common sense prevail?

£84.60 is the price of the Anytime Single on Grand Central so the issue with allowing travel on the booking confirmation alone that I mentioned above still applies. Having your name on the booking means nothing in practice, as the person who books tickets (whose name would be printed on the standard orange stock tickets) doesn't have to be the person travelling.

If you explain the situation in full, they may decide to exercise discretion and waive the UPFN, but officially speaking they do not have to.

Edit: As island mentioned below me, you can in fact get your original ticket refunded, subject to a £10 fee, as it is not used. So it is not all that bad at the end. So you may want to just pay the UPFN but seek a refund on the original ticket.

 

[island]

It was and a standard anytime for the service I got at 16:50 (I only booked it last night my my employer too).

My notice is for £84.60 which is the same price of the booked ticket.

You can get the booked ticket refunded with a £10 admin fee. But as you were unable to present a ticket onboard, the unpaid fares notice was correctly issued; it is your responsibility to obtain the ticket before you travel.

For future reference, Grand Central sells tickets on board the train.

 

[DazNEUK]

Thanks guys.

The company paid for my ticket and as the ticket hasn't been collected in theory they can see that and cancel it out?

If not my company will get a refund but I will have to pay the sum personally or will they just charge me the £10 fee and be done?

 

[bb21]

It's up to you really, if your company are happy to refund the ticket on your behalf and reimburse you for the trip cost (ie. the UPFN).

But if you want to collect the ticket and do it yourself, you better do it quick, as I think the tickets are only kept in some systems for 24 hours after the last day of validity, although it does vary from system to system.

 

[island]

The safest way to resolve this is to pay the UPFN and then cancel the uncollected ticket, which will result in a refund of the price of the ticket less a £10 deduction. The refund will go to the original method of payment and needs to be requested within 29 days of the date of travel, in this instance.

It is, in my view, unlikely that GC will be in a position to cancel the uncollected ticket in direct settlement of the UPFN, and if the ticket was not booked through GC, I expect it would be impossible. Nothing stopping you from asking of course.

Once it the UPFN is closed, reimbursement (including of the £10 fee) will be a matter as between you and your company.

It goes without saying that just doing nothing is not an option. UPFNs attract administration fees if not paid on time, and in many cases the time limit is just ten days. Also if you are appealing or contesting the UPFN, full payment is due with your appeal and will be refunded if the appeal is successful; failing to make payment will again result in surcharges.

 

[Flamingo]

As well as the "give it to a friend" scenario, there is nothing to stop an unscrupulous passenger from collecting the ticket and just claiming a refund.

In this scenario, if the conformation paperwork is for an Advance Ticket, I'll be more inclined to use my discretion than if it's for a ticket on which a refund can be claimed at a later date.

 

[SETCommuter]

will common sense prevail?

Common sense & the railways do not go hand-in-hand unfortunately

 

[John @ home]

It was and a standard anytime for the service I got at 16:50 ... My notice is for £84.60 which is the same price of the booked ticket.

It was an advance single booked by my employer last night for that train (16:50).

We have a contradiction here.

A Standard Anytime ticket is a flexible, refundable ticket. If it has not been used, you are entitles to a refund of the full fare paid minus a £10 admin fee. The ticket must be returned unused and the refund claimed within 28 days.

An Advance ticket is an inflexible ticket valid on the booked train(s) only. It is not refundable. After the departure of a booked train, the ticket has no value.

Which type of ticket did you have?

 

[ainsworth74]

I have removed some off topic discussion around e-tickets from this thread and placed it here. Please ensure when posting on these thread that your comments are as relevant to the original poster as possible. If you wish to discussion side issues arising from comments here then feel free to start a new thread in Fares Advice & Policy with either a link back to the thread in this forum or a quote of the post you wish to discuss.

 

[Fare-Cop]

It was an advance single booked by my employer last night for that train (16:50).

It's got my name on the booking, I had ID etc.
I don't see why they can't accept that booking especially as it's all online.
From experience will common sense prevail?

One obvious reason is that in almost every case the booking confirmation has printed somewhere on it 'This is not your ticket and cannot be used to travel', or words to that effect.

It will remind you how the ticket has to be collected and what the holder needs to do in order to comply. The terms are accepted when booking.

The advice given by others, which is to pay the unpaid fare notice and then seek a refund of the original ticket, is the safest option.

 

[ffm]

.....and consider that the £10 cost is a small price to pay for not checking beforehand, or collecting the ticket in plenty if time. For future reference you an collect a booked ticket from any ticket machine, not just at the station chosen when booking.

 

[furlong]

Once on the train and charged I showed the lady my booking which showed the booking etc. I really didn't expect a problem but she insisted on giving me an unpaid fare notice for not having a ticket despite me showing confirmation of my booking.

It's such a disappointing experience when it's obvious it's a genuine booking.
The sooner the industry moves to e-tickets to avoid genuine people being unfairly penalised.

There was a little procedural failure here: when issuing the unpaid fare notice, it should have been explained to you that if the original ticket was genuinely unused then you could apply for a refund on it so you would not end up out-of-pocket other than the possible £10 admin fee.

Had the ticket been purchased from the Southern website, as you hadn't collected it, I think it would have fallen within their Money Back Guarantee:

the guarantee applies to all Anytime, Anytime Day, Off-Peak, Off-Peak Day, Super Off-Peak and Southern Advance tickets bought online at southernrailway.com.

You’ll be entitled to a full refund providing you don’t pick up your tickets.

 

[Flamingo]

Which is yet another reason to charge up people like the OP who (for whatever reason) have not collected their ticket...

 

[PermitToTravel]

Which is yet another reason to charge up people like the OP who (for whatever reason) have not collected their ticket...

Absolutely. An alternative system for dealing with this kind of thing could be for guards to allow anyone to show a booking reference or similar, but mandate that they sit in their booked seats or buy a walk up ticket. Guards would check these against their manifests to confirm that the booking confirmation shown has not been doctored, as a phone screen or printout shown by a stranger on its own always proves absolutely nothing. Such a system would promote flexibility of travel, and would not require many changes to the British railway ticketing system (it wouldn't require any changes to the inflexible parts).

It would not at all be reasonable, without completely overhauling said ticketing system, to allow the same with pre-booked flexible tickets, without introducing a whole host of new loopholes for fare evaders to abuse.

 

[island]

That would cause a mess at ticket barriers though

 

[30907]

Absolutely. An alternative system for dealing with this kind of thing could be for guards to allow anyone to show a booking reference or similar, but mandate that they sit in their booked seats or buy a walk up ticket. Guards would check these against their manifests to confirm that the booking confirmation shown has not been doctored, as a phone screen or printout shown by a stranger on its own always proves absolutely nothing.

Do onboard staff have access to anything like a manifest, and would it include the passenger's name (I've sometimes seen this on printed reservation labels but not always)?

 

[PermitToTravel]

That would cause a mess at ticket barriers though

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. I don't think that automatic ticket barriers should be used to start long distance journeys, but as they presently are, that idea's a non starter

Do onboard staff have access to anything like a manifest, and would it include the passenger's name (I've sometimes seen this on printed reservation labels but not always)?

I believe that (at least for many intercity trains) they do, including Megatrain bookings, cycle reservations, booked assistances, etc. I doubt that at present guards are given a list of seat reservations

 

[Flamingo]

Occasionally we get a list of reservations, not always. They might have 1 in 10 names, not even that many sometimes.

They would be of minimal use in these scenario's.

 

[Deerfold]

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. I don't think that automatic ticket barriers should be used to start long distance journeys, but as they presently are, that idea's a non starter

Long distance journeys don't have to start at a large station so you'd have to remove them everywhere to stop them being in the way for long journeys.

I believe that (at least for many intercity trains) they do, including Megatrain bookings, cycle reservations, booked assistances, etc. I doubt that at present guards are given a list of seat reservations

My wife had a problem with a seat reservation not printing for an advance ticket for a direct train from beyond Leeds to London which she didn't notice in enough time to sort before travelling.

She sought out the guard (aware she may need to buy a new ticket) who did not have a list of advance ticket holders but was fortunately able to get in touch with control and confirm she was on the right train (I'm not sure if this would have been possible if she hadn't booked with East Coast).