Ticket Machine "rip off"

[Brock_and_Roll]

I recently took some clients from Waterloo to Ascot on what is probably a very popular route for commuters, racegoers and tourists alike.

When buying a ticket from the machine I was faced with 2 choices:

1) Any route

2) Via Staines

Not knowing where exactly Staines relative to Ascot was and with no particular desire to go "via it" I went for option one at £22 for a single.

It was only when I saw a ticket that a colleague had bought from a ticket office that going "via Staines" was half the price - and Staines was merely one stop on the route and as such effectively all direct traines go "via Staines".

Now I am a very experienced rail traveller travelling on trains almost every day of my life, yet I was stung for an extra £10. I would be very interested to know how many tourists etc are diddled by this kind of thing especially as buying from machines is becomming increasingly common. I feel that this is effively a hidden fare increase boosting the profits of Souter and others.

 

[trainophile]

Might have been worth you checking online before committing to your purchase?

 

[Lad Brookes]

Or clicking on both options to see the various prices?
Or looking at a map at the station to see where Staines was?

 

[wibble]

Now I am a very experienced rail traveller travelling on trains almost every day of my life, yet I was stung for an extra £10. I would be very interested to know how many tourists etc are diddled by this kind of thing especially as buying from machines is becomming increasingly common. I feel that this is effively a hidden fare increase boosting the profits of Souter and others.

Actually, this is more to do with impartial retailing than people being 'diddled'.

The ticket routed via 'Staines' is set by SWT and the route 'Any Permitted' by First Great Western.
Route 'Staines' allows travel on the direct service from Waterloo.
Route 'Any Permitted' allows travel on the direct service from Waterloo but also allows travel via Reading and in to Paddington.

Both routes are offered in the TVm to give the passenger the choice of travelling direct from Waterloo or having the option of travelling via Reading to Paddington. The higher price on the Any Permitted ticket reflects the fare charged between Paddington and Reading with FGW.

 

[LexyBoy]

TVMs need to be much better in terms of clarity and their offering IMO. Nowadays it wouldn’t be hard to have TVMs which allow you to select a ticket and show valid trains, or vice versa, as with the WebTIS interface used by several TOCs on their websites. If I went to the Waterloo ticket office and asked for a ticket to Ascot, they wouldn’t ask me which route I wanted but would sell the Staines ticket – even in more complex examples they would be able to advise on the ticket’s validity, which isn’t available from the TVM.

For future reference, if in doubt, buy the cheapest ticket, not the most expensive! The worst case then is that you’ll be charged an excess fare to the correct ticket, rather than paying for extra validity you don’t need (this applies to Anytime/Off Peak choices as well as routeings)*. The TOCs (SWT is particularly bad IMO) like to give the impression that you will be fined huge sums if you don’t have the correct ticket, which scares many into buying an unnecessarily expensive fare.

*Exception: TOC-specific tickets (e.g. “London Midland Only”) cannot be excessed owing to a stupid ATOC decision.

 

[wibble]

TVMs need to be much better in terms of clarity and their offering IMO. Nowadays it wouldn’t be hard to have TVMs which allow you to select a ticket and show valid trains, or vice versa, as with the WebTIS interface used by several TOCs on their websites. If I went to the Waterloo ticket office and asked for a ticket to Ascot, they wouldn’t ask me which route I wanted but would sell the Staines ticket – even in more complex examples they would be able to advise on the ticket’s validity, which isn’t available from the TVM.

I agree with the improved clarity but actually getting TVMs to do that is actaully more difficult!

If you go to the ticket office at Waterloo they should offer you the option of buying the Any Permitted ticket and they shouldn't automatically assume that you're travelling via Staines - if they do, they're not complying with impartial retailing rules.

 

[FGWman]

Why not write to them asking for some refund ? The Any permitted single is valid from paddington as well as waterloo. But you were already at Waterloo so Paddington clearly was not an option as underground is not included in your £22.

AIUI TVM at such busy stations are only there to sell tickets for immediate travel. You can only buy tickets from where you are - it does not do boundary tickets, group save tickets or tickets from any other originating station. So the logical thing to do is someone should program the machine to only issue tickets for routes you can actually use. But that would be expensive and require SWT to actually spend some money on customer service so it just sells tickets from London Terminals. Hence why you were offered such a ticket.

So write pointing this out to them.. You never know they may give you your money back.

PS the same problem happens at weekends. TVM machines regularly offer anytime day returns when the off peak day return is valid all day.

 

[wibble]

So the logical thing to do is someone should program the machine to only issue tickets for routes you can actually use. But that would be expensive and require SWT to actually spend some money on customer service so it just sells tickets from London Terminals. Hence why you were offered such a ticket.

I think the routeing text on TVMs are far from clear, but SWT isn't any worse than any other TOC using S&B's TVMs....

Both ticket routes are valid from Waterloo so both should be offered. If the tickets were routed 'Staines' and 'Reading', then yes, only one route should be offered.

Would you say that some doing a journey from Basingstoke to London should only be offered the route 'Woking' ticket, even though the 'Any Permitted' ticket is valid for travel via Reading? What happens to the person that wants to break their journey at Reading?

 

[FGWman]

I think the routeing text on TVMs are far from clear, but SWT isn't any worse than any other TOC using S&B's TVMs....

Both ticket routes are valid from Waterloo so both should be offered. If the tickets were routed 'Staines' and 'Reading', then yes, only one route should be offered.

Would you say that some doing a journey from Basingstoke to London should only be offered the route 'Woking' ticket, even though the 'Any Permitted' ticket is valid for travel via Reading? What happens to the person that wants to break their journey at Reading?

Yes but what I am getting at is that the staines ticket is all that should be offered. You would only need the any permitted ticket if you are travelling from paddington but the OP is already at waterloo so cannot be travelling from paddington

 

[MikeWh]

Yes but what I am getting at is that the staines ticket is all that should be offered. You would only need the any permitted ticket if you are travelling from paddington but the OP is already at waterloo so cannot be travelling from paddington

What about if they want to go out from Waterloo and return to Paddington?

 

[yorkie]

What about if they want to go out from Waterloo and return to Paddington?

Then they'd be wasting their money if they bought the Any Permitted, because they only need an excess for the return portion only (charged at half the difference).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not knowing where exactly Staines relative to Ascot was and with no particular desire to go "via it" I went for option one at £22 for a single.

Your concerns are very valid, however bear in mind in future that if presented with multiple routes, if you are unsure which option is best, and there are no staff on hand to ask, I would recommend purchasing the cheapest. If this is incorrect, then staff should excess you to the correct fare. This ensures you will not be out of pocket. As mentioned earlier, there is an exception and that is if the 'route' refers to a specific train company, in which case the ticket cannot be excesses and you must travel with that company (there is no logical/sensible reason for this).

 

[FGWman]

What about if they want to go out from Waterloo and return to Paddington?

Because the OP says single. I agree that could be possible for a return but not for a single.

 

[RPI]

Nowhere do any TOC's indicate that you will be fined for travelling off route? its quite a well known fact that you cannot be PF'd for being off route!

 

[185]

Might have been worth you checking online before committing to your purchase?

In an ideal world maybe,

But customer should not have to.

 

[WestCountry]

its quite a well known fact that you cannot be PF'd for being off route!

Presumably within sensible limits - I would certainly hope that if I tried to travel Cambridge -> Ely via Bristol, Sheffield and Inverness (it does work without doubling back) a PF could be issued somewhere...

 

[yorkie]

Presumably within sensible limits - I would certainly hope that if I tried to travel Cambridge -> Luton via Inverness (it does work without doubling back) a PF could be issued somewhere...

That's clearly overdistance, not off-route, and a PF would only apply if you boarded a PF train at PF station where adequate facilities were not available.

I don't know what you mean by "it does work"!

 

[Brock_and_Roll]

Thanks everyone for your reponses.

Yes of course in an ideal world I should have checked online, asked at office etc. But my point was not to protect the likes of me, but the many "walk ons" such as tourists etc who turn up at a station and buy a ticket from a machine.

In my opinion the machine should offer up the cheapest route first and make clear any restrictions. It is also not beyond the realms of technology for the machine to know that I am actually at Waterloo and hence going via Staines is just about the only logical way to get to Ascot - its a bit like turning up at Basingstoke and being asked if you want to go to London "via Clapham Junction" or "any Permitted" - a tourist, or someone in a hurry/not familiar with the area might well go for the second option.

 

[WillPS]

Compare the self service ticket machines with 'Fastlane' checkouts at supermarkets.

Fastlane checkouts have big buttons, clearly worded instructions and are altogether a pleasant user experience.

The GUI on ticket machines is, at best, terrible. Small buttons, small fonts, misleading lists (listed Alphabetically rather than by price), inconsistent with one another... the list goes on.

Only on the railways are customers blamed for such terribly implemented systems.

 

[Brock_and_Roll]

.....and apparently its MY fault that my £5,000 Gold Card has ceased working at the ticket barriers after just 2 days! This is a new record for me! If Tesco Clubcards ceased working like this Tesco would design a new one straight away rather than blaming customers for, shock horror, owning a mobile phone that corrupts the card!!

 

[gordonthemoron]

it would be best if TVMs were simply a front end to the TOCs website

 

[jon0844]

At the very least the software on any modern TVM (and by modern, I mean going back a fair few years) could show a route map that shows the validity of each ticket.

It might not have to be shown every time, but when you press for info on a ticket it could, and should, show the valid routes.

If tickets had a clearer method of showing the serial number, you could even let a TVM issue a ticket extension printed with the number (or more likely the last 3-4 digits) of your valid ticket printed on. Then, set the extension to trigger the 'seek assistance' at the gate and get staff to check the extension with your existing ticket.

If someone can't produce the original ticket or the numbers don't match, it's off to court - no PF or a 'don't do it again' warning.

 

[Matt Taylor]

So the logical thing to do is someone should program the machine to only issue tickets for routes you can actually use.

You seem to be conveniently forgetting that the quickest route from Waterloo to Reading is via Paddington. The SWT service takes almost an hour and a half while an HST does Paddington to Reading in 25 minutes, even factoring in the tube journey it is still significantly quicker to go via Paddington.

 

[LexyBoy]

You seem to be conveniently forgetting that the quickest route from Waterloo to Reading is via Paddington. The SWT service takes almost an hour and a half while an HST does Paddington to Reading in 25 minutes, even factoring in the tube journey it is still significantly quicker to go via Paddington.

But a London Terminals-Reading ticket wouldn't be valid for that journey, unless you walked to Paddington. In any case, we were discussing Ascot...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.....and apparently its MY fault that my £5,000 Gold Card has ceased working at the ticket barriers after just 2 days! This is a new record for me! If Tesco Clubcards ceased working like this Tesco would design a new one straight away rather than blaming customers for, shock horror, owning a mobile phone that corrupts the card!!

It most definitely isn't your fault- it should be replaced at no cost. Best to keep it in a different pocket from your phone to avoid happening constantly though!

Out of interest, does you Gold Card include a Travelcard, or cover any of the route to Ascot? If so, then you'd be paying too much with any ticket from a TVM (ie from 'London Terminals'). I assume you were travelling before 1000 so didn't get the GC discount.

 

[route:oxford]

Surely 'not reading' would be more suitable than 'via staines'.