Ticket machine placement

[atillathehunn]

Not technically a dispute, I suppose, but could lead to one.

I recently travelled from Greenbank to Chester, a journey I used to make frequently but haven't done in probably 5 years having been expat.

I had arrived in plenty of time for the train, went to the Chester bound platform and then happened to notice there is now a ticket machine on the Manchester bound platform. It is not a footbridge between the platforms, it's a walk up the ramp to the road bridge, along, down the steps and onto the platform. It's a much longer walk if you have a wheelchair or mobility restrictions. You also must leave the station premises to undertake this. I popped over to buy a ticket as it killed a bit of time and so never tested the theory.

However, it is not advertised, and on the wrong platform. If I had boarded the train to Chester without purchasing a ticket, would I have been reprimanded?

I rather hope not given I must leave the station in order to purchase a ticket - an especially long walk for the mobility impaired. I would argue an unacceptable walk even for the mobile!

 

[northwichcat]

The machine at Greenbank is card only so you are allowed to buy on board if you want to pay using cash or if the machine refuses your card.

I very much doubt a conductor working a Mid-Cheshire line service would refuse to offer the full range of tickets to someone with mobility restrictions who boarded a Chester bound train without a ticket.

If you think Greenbank would be bad for people who can't manage the steps you should see what happens if you arrive at the Chester bound platform at Knutsford and want to get to the Manchester bound platform where the ticket office and ticket machine are located without using the steps.

 

[Hassocks5489]

This is an interesting subject which affects quite a lot of stations (i.e. most places with two side platforms). TOCs seem to have different approaches. Down in my area, Southern basically did a two-stage rollout of TVMs (Shere FASTticket machines in their case). For simplicity I'll ignore single-platform, island-platform and single-approach stations (i.e. where you go through a ticket office or another single entrance.) In the first wave of installations, higher-traffic stations with entrances on each side, especially on main lines, got TVMs on each platform (Hassocks, Burgess Hill, Shoreham-by-Sea etc), but "lesser" stations got only one, which was generally put on the platform from which the highest-traffic destination was reached. e.g. Polegate got one on the Down side because most people go to Eastbourne, in theory; Durrington got one on the Up side for Worthing-bound people. On the other platform, the old PERTIS was retained (or in some cases, moved to that platform). Several years later, a second wave of TVM installations happened. Most single-machine stations got a second, on the "other" platform; most small stations where none had been installed got one on the higher-traffic platform; and some (e.g. Burgess Hill and Shoreham-by-Sea) got extra machines on the higher-traffic platform.

Ideally, Greenbank and all other stations with restricted access between side platforms would have one TVM on each. Alternatively, a single machine could be sited where it could be accessed from either side; in the case of Greenbank, on the road bridge. That is rarely done by Southern, perhaps because of security/vandalism: I remember at one station (Birkbeck) where there was a single machine at the station entrance on the road, it was vandalised and put out of service for several years (!).

 

[northwichcat]

Greenbank is a small unstaffed station on the border of Northwich and the neighbouring village of Hartford. A lot of journeys to/from the station relate to it being located near 3 High Schools and a FE College so many people boarding trains there should already have tickets. The station itself does have CCTV but the road doesn't and in the past there has been vandalism at the station so Northern probably did need to put the machine where it is covered by CCTV.

I think if Northern want to install extra TVMs on the Mid-Cheshire line priority needs to be the Chester bound platforms at both Knutsford and Altrincham, then the Manchester bound platform at Hale.

 

[LisaH]

Hi
I get the train from Altrincham to Knutsford daily. A couple of times I've arrived at Altrincham and not had time to get a ticket - despite the official policy I have never had a problem buying a ticket from Altrincham on the train. That's not to say Northern would never enforce the letter of the law but my experience is that in this situation (ticket office some distance from platform) they don't. Hopefully Greenbank is the same.

"A lot of journeys to/from the station relate to it being located near 3 High Schools and a FE College so many people boarding trains there should already have tickets."
Should is the operative word here - in particular between Altrincham and Hale which is a short hop and saves a walk up a hill!.... hence the discrepancy between official and real passenger numbers.

 

[northwichcat]

LisaH - in your circumstances at present platform 4 is a long walk from the ticket office at Altrincham and also the most direct route is currently closed due to the work being undertaken to remove the current footbridge and to build a new one.

The actual wording from the timetable is:

It’s a legal requirement to have a valid ticket or
pass before you start your journey and you risk
prosecution if you travel without one.

You must buy your ticket from the ticket office or
ticket vending machine before getting on the
train. If the ticket office is closed or you board at
an unstaffed station you can buy your ticket
from the conductor on the train. If you avoid
using the ticket office or vending machine when
they’re available, the conductor will charge you
the full Anytime Single/Return fare.

So if you're travelling at peak time and want a single/return ticket with no railcard discount the conductor can enforce that policy and it would make no difference to you.

G4S RPIs do appear at Knutsford regularly and also appear at Northwich, Greenbank and Altrincham (platform 3) but sometimes at Knutsford and Northwich it's 1 G4S RPI without a ticket machine who stands near the doors to the ticket office and anyone alighting a train with no ticket is told to buy one from the ticket office. While on other occasions they have 5 G4S RPIs and BTP at Knutsford - that scares the cocky schoolkids who think they can do anything they want!

 

[island]

The thing is, if you choose not to use available ticketing facilities before joining a train, you are committing a criminal offence. The fact that under some circumstances that offence will not be prosecuted and you will instead be sold a ticket does not make it OK to not buy a ticket.

 

[40fan]

what happens if the ticket machine does not take cash and the passenger has no credit or debit cards? This seems to be the situation at Stafford when the office is closed, I have not seen a ticket machine accepting cash there.

 

[island]

what happens if the ticket machine does not take cash and the passenger has no credit or debit cards? This seems to be the situation at Stafford when the office is closed, I have not seen a ticket machine accepting cash there.

There is not a black and white rule in this scenario but in practice passengers who are affected by this will be sold a ticket on board.

Not quite the scenario you mention, but it is my personal opinion that a passenger who has cash and a card (that is accepted, has available funds, and that the passenger is capable of using) commits an offence by boarding a train without a ticket when there is available a card-only TVM but he wants to pay with cash.

 

[andrewkeith5]

There is not a black and white rule in this scenario but in practice passengers who are affected by this will be sold a ticket on board.

Not quite the scenario you mention, but it is my personal opinion that a passenger who has cash and a card (that is accepted, has available funds, and that the passenger is capable of using) commits an offence by boarding a train without a ticket when there is available a card-only TVM but he wants to pay with cash.

Your opinion is extremely unfair. If the TOC chooses not to make available payment methods they are obliged to accept under their franchise agreement then a passenger is within their rights to purchase their ticket at the first opportunity made available to use that method. There are perfectly plausible reasons for choosing to use cash instead of card payment which are of no concern to the TOC or any of its staff members.

 

[northwichcat]

There is not a black and white rule in this scenario but in practice passengers who are affected by this will be sold a ticket on board.

Not quite the scenario you mention, but it is my personal opinion that a passenger who has cash and a card (that is accepted, has available funds, and that the passenger is capable of using) commits an offence by boarding a train without a ticket when there is available a card-only TVM but he wants to pay with cash.

What has to be remembered is things very between operators. Some South of England operators say that if the ticket for the full journey you want isn't available from the TVM then to buy a ticket for part of the journey and excess it at the first opportunity. Northern and TPE say that if the ticket you want isn't available from the TVM and there isn't an open ticket office then to purchase on board - which is just as well considering buying things like Evening Returns, Duos and Wayfarers isn't always possible from a TVM and there isn't a suitable cheaper ticket you can buy and later excess.

 

[island]

It's worth remembering that what ought to be right and what keeps you safe from potential prosecution will be different. Certainly it's reasonable to say that someone who wants to pay cash should be allowed to do so, but if you have a card that you could have used in a card-only TVM and choose not to use it, wanting to pay cash on board or on arrival, you leave yourself open to a penalty fare or prosecution, or at the very least some weeks of uncertainty if you encounter the wrong RPI. Simply put, choosing not to use a method of payment that you have and is accepted because you feel like using a different one can open you up to suspicion.

 

[northwichcat]

If you're able to pay by either cash or card without causing any issues and encounter a card only TVM as the only available way of buying before you board then I agree you should buy from the TVM.

An RPI has no idea how much money you have available on your card and in some cases it could be that trying to prove that at a cashpoint would show something like "Balance £2.50 Available £300", they have no idea whether you any the available overdraft facility is interest free or not. It would certainly be very unreasonable to expect someone to go overdrawn and start paying interest on it when they have enough cash to pay for a ticket.

 

[Flamingo]

Why is it unreasonable for a TOC to expect a passenger to pay for their journey if facilities are provided?

 

[455driver]

Why is it unreasonable for a TOC to expect a passenger to pay for their journey if facilities are provided?

It never ceases to amaze me how people will happily walk to the station but walking a bit further to a ticket machine is seen as such a chore.

This obviously only applies to able bodied people who make up the vast majority of ticketless travellers, also less able bodied people seem to be able to organise themselves better and nearly always have a valid ticket!

 

[yorkie]

what happens if the ticket machine does not take cash ....

If you are paying by cash and there are no facilities to buy the ticket at your origin, then clearly that's not an opportunity to pay. So you board the train and pay on the train. If the Guard doesn't get to you (broken machine, busy dealing with passengers from previous stops, etc etc) then you pay at the destination if facilities exist to do so.

 

[northwichcat]

Why is it unreasonable for a TOC to expect a passenger to pay for their journey if facilities are provided?

Being familiar with the station mentioned in the OP I can confirm if you arrive for a Chester bound at the correct platform there is one sign indicating that the platform is for Chester bound trains, there is also a sign saying Hartford station is one mile away, there is no sign indicating that you need to go to the Manchester bound platform for ticket selling facilities. If you arrive the other side of the road bridge the signs indicate that you need to go across the bridge for Chester trains and stay the same side for Manchester trains. At the point where those signs are you can't see the TVM on the Manchester bound platform.

If the TOC don't make clear that ticket purchasing facilities are available how are the non-regular passengers supposed to know that they're there?

 

[atillathehunn]

It never ceases to amaze me how people will happily walk to the station but walking a bit further to a ticket machine is seen as such a chore.

This obviously only applies to able bodied people who make up the vast majority of ticketless travellers, also less able bodied people seem to be able to organise themselves better and nearly always have a valid ticket!

Well sorry to resurrect this thread, but as I started it and then ended up being away for so long seemed prescient to reply.

This wasn't quite the question. I am not trying to imply I refused to pay my fare. I, as I stated, did walk to purchase a ticket as I had time in hand.

However, in this case I would be required to walk onto the Chester bound platform in order to see the machine. I would then have to leave station premises to walk to purchase a ticket. I don't find this particularly appropriate. In accordance with the interpretation of Bylaw 18 (seems to be popular in these threads), if I had boarded at Lostock Grahlam for example (random example with no ticket machine) and the conductor didn't get to me in the train, and I was to walk up the ramp to the station, it is quite conceivable, surely, that it would be viewed as me leaving the premises with intent to avoid payment, even though I was simply walking to the ticket machine to purchase a ticket at my destination.

The distance up the ramp to the road, down the road to the road entrance to the station (along public pavement, not station) to the ticket machine and back is approximately 0.6km. This journey would have to be taken by anyone in a wheelchair who could not manage the stairs. I would argue that my failure to purchase a ticket before boarding is justified.

 

[swt_passenger]

...if I had boarded at Lostock Grahlam for example (random example with no ticket machine) and the conductor didn't get to me in the train, and I was to walk up the ramp to the station, it is quite conceivable, surely, that it would be viewed as me leaving the premises with intent to avoid payment, even though I was simply walking to the ticket machine to purchase a ticket at my destination.

Unfortunately (assuming I've understood correctly) in the vast majority of situations the machine at your destination is no use to you in that situation, because it won't be able to sell a correct ticket for the part of the journey you've just completed...

Unless there's a manned ticket office at your destination you normally cannot by a ticket from another place. (There are exceptions, such as Southern TVMs - but this facility is not generally available.)

 

[transmanche]

Unless there's a manned ticket office at your destination you normally cannot by a ticket from another place. (There are exceptions, such as Southern TVMs - but this facility is not generally available.)

As an aside, EC have done so in a few places; so maybe they are becoming more widespread.

 

[jon0844]

Out of interest, how many TOCs have made it clear that machines can now issue tickets from another origin?

If you knew they didn't, so wouldn't even try next time, what happens when you're told they do and you should have used it?