Ticket machine broke down while printing tickets?

[Krystal]

This was about a month ago when I booked London Euston to Manchester Airport return tickets for four people on another site.
The outbound leg was split ticketing between Euston and Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Piccadilly to Heald Green and Heald Green to Manchester Airport, and the inbound leg is not relevant for this post. This made 30 tickets in total (including the seat reservations), and I made the very silly mistake of deciding to collect it at a ticket office/machine.

All fine and well, until I went to Hackney Central to try collect it, where around 20 tickets in, the machine jammed and stopped. I called a staff member who got the machine back up and running but he said that no more tickets were going to come out. I then went to another station, London Fields, to try print tickets again, and it actually worked - 8 more popped out.

Notice that 20+8 not 30. I later checked the tickets and realised that two Piccadilly-Heald Green tickets (each worth 4.20) were missing, presumably from when the Hackney Central machines tried dispensing them and failed, and it did not come out of the London Fields ticket machines.

In the end, we abandoned our original route at Piccadilly (because we were 35L) and took a taxi instead. But now I have a few questions:

1) If we wanted to stick to the plan, who were we meant to contact about the two missing tickets as a result of machine malfunction? London Overground, Northern Trains or the ticket vendor we bought it from?
2) If we had continued on with the plan with two missing tickets and an RPO was on board what would be the best port of call to do? Would the best option be to explain the situation when they come to us?
3) The Avanti train in question from EUS arrived 35 minutes late. Even though they were not advances, would we have been eligible to request a refund of the tickets from NT (and especially the missing ones) on the grounds that the late running made us change our minds, especially the missing two tickets?

 

[Haywain]

Even though they were not advances, would we have been eligible to request a refund of the tickets from NT (and especially the missing ones) on the grounds that the late running made us change our minds, especially the missing two tickets?

No, but you would have been eligible to claim a refund of those tickets from the original retailer. Northern would be liable for compensation, but retailers are responsible for refunds of unused tickets.

 

[Watershed]

In the end, we abandoned our original route at Piccadilly (because we were 35L) and took a taxi instead. But now I have a few questions:

I'm curious why you took a taxi from Piccadilly, when there are trains every ~10 mins to the Airport which take ~15 mins. By contrast a taxi typically takes 25 mins without traffic and obviously much longer during rush hour. So although you were running late, taking a taxi is unlikely to have saved you much time overall.

1) If we wanted to stick to the plan, who were we meant to contact about the two missing tickets as a result of machine malfunction? London Overground, Northern Trains or the ticket vendor we bought it from?

At the first instance I would have asked the Hackney Central staff to raise the issue further, since there are established procedures when ticket collection goes wrong. I know that Overground station staff often don't seem to know much about ticketing (despite this being one of their main roles!) but I probably would have insisted on them doing something more.

Anyway, having exhausted that possibility it is ultimately on the retailer of your tickets to ensure that you receive your tickets. Though they may subcontract that responsibility to ticket machine or ticket office operators (much in the same way they may subcontract delivery to Royal Mail if you choose postal fulfilment) ultimately they are still the retailer and thus are responsible for making sure you receive your tickets.

I would have contacted the retailer at the time, after the Overground station staff were unhelpful, and asked them what to do. They would have been in a position to potentially issue you new tickets or to raise the issue with the administrators of the ToD (Ticket on Departure, i.e. ticket collection) system.

2) If we had continued on with the plan with two missing tickets and an RPO was on board what would be the best port of call to do? Would the best option be to explain the situation when they come to us?

That would have been an unwise course of action. Even though the fault for not receiving all of your tickets lies with the rail industry, ultimately, it is your legal responsibility to make sure you have a valid ticket when you board the train. Boarding without a valid ticket is a criminal offence, given that there are ways to buy a (new) ticket at for example Manchester Piccadilly or London Euston. Alternatively, you could have been issued with a Penalty Penalty Fare.

Obviously none of those would have been morally fair outcomes, but we have to be realistic about the fact that they are legally open to the train company. There are some members of revenue protection staff who are so focused on pursuing a perceived irregularity that they would issue a PF or take details for prosecution in this kind of situation - rather than being pragmatic.

3) The Avanti train in question from EUS arrived 35 minutes late. Even though they were not advances, would we have been eligible to request a refund of the tickets from NT (and especially the missing ones) on the grounds that the late running made us change our minds, especially the missing two tickets?

The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) were changed a few years back, such that you can now only get a refund on unused ticket if you abandon your journey due to disruption and return to your origin. In this case, you obviously didn't return to London. Therefore, I don't think you can claim a refund on those tickets just because of the fact that you decided to abandon the train and take a taxi for the last part.

There is a separate entitlement under Article 16 of the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO) which would entitle you to get a refund on unused tickets if they no longer serve any purpose in relation to your intended journey. However, that would require the anticipated delay in arriving at Manchester Airport to be more than 60 minutes, which is unlikely to have been the case here, as there probably would have been another train that would have got you there at most 60 minutes late.

If you can tell us the date and time of travel then we can work this out, but generally speaking most trains to Manchester Airport run on a repeating hourly or half-hourly basis.

I think you have a stronger case for getting a refund from the retailer on the tickets that weren't fulfilled, as obviously you haven't received the tickets you've paid for; however, I think you might struggle to get a refund on the other tickets that were fulfilled but unused from Manchester Airport. There's no harm in asking but I think you'll get get a refusal in response.

 

[Haywain]

The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) were changed a few years back, such that you can now only get a refund on unused ticket if you abandon your journey due to disruption and return to your origin. In this case, you obviously didn't return to London. Therefore, I don't think you can claim a refund on those tickets just because of the fact that you decided to abandon the train and take a taxi for the last part.

As the tickets were from Manchester Piccadilly to Heald Green, and Heald Green to Manchester Airport, it doesn't seem to be a reasonable argument that the tickets are not eligible for refund because the OP didn't return to London. The requirement must be to return to, or not leave, the point of origin of the ticket.

 

[Watershed]

As the tickets were from Manchester Piccadilly to Heald Green, and Heald Green to Manchester Airport, it doesn't seem to be a reasonable argument that the tickets are not eligible for refund because the OP didn't return to London. The requirement must be to return to, or not leave, the point of origin of the ticket.

As much as I'd love for that to be the case I would not be confident that every retailer would interpret it that way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As the tickets were from Manchester Piccadilly to Heald Green, and Heald Green to Manchester Airport, it doesn't seem to be a reasonable argument that the tickets are not eligible for refund because the OP didn't return to London. The requirement must be to return to, or not leave, the point of origin of the ticket.

We then get into "cake and eat it" with split tickets. It's either one journey or it's several. See also claiming delay repay for bits rather than all of it.

 

[Haywain]

We then get into "cake and eat it" with split tickets. It's either one journey or it's several.

I think if you are only claiming for tickets that were genuinely unused, for reasons of disruption, that it's within the spirit of the rules.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think if you are only claiming for tickets that were genuinely unused, for reasons of disruption, that it's within the spirit of the rules.

Probably fair. The only reason after all that "return to origin" was put in was people taking the mick, e.g. under the old rules if I had gone from Wick to Bletchley via MKC first anytime single I could have refunded that in its entirety if I abandoned at MKC on the way home due to one minute of delay. Refunding a ticket that wasn't used at all due to disruption does sound fair on reflection.

 

[Haywain]

Probably fair. The only reason after all that "return to origin" was put in was people taking the mick, e.g. under the old rules if I had gone from Wick to Bletchley via MKC first anytime single I could have refunded that in its entirety if I abandoned at MKC on the way home due to one minute of delay. Refunding a ticket that wasn't used at all due to disruption does sound fair on reflection.

Indeed. If the OP were asking to refund all of the tickets from London to Manchester Airport, I would agree that it would not be in accordance with the amended NRCoT.

 

[IanMac]

I know this isn't helpful in the particular case, but I always use a TVM co-located with a ticket office for ticket collection. When one or more tickets fail to print, the staff have no problem in getting me what's missing. What they can't do is provide any explanation of what happened.