Ticket Issuing Error - Threatened with Prosecution

[Iskra]

On a recent journey, I did not receive my travel tickets in the post as requested. They were also not attached to the booking confirmation email (I ordered different tickets the day before from the same company and QR codes were also attached to that email). I rang the number included in Transpennine's booking confirmation email, which it says to ring if your tickets have not arrived. This number does not work and simply goes to 'call failed.' I therefore arrived early at my station the next day, thinking I could get my tickets to travel printed by the booking office. I gave the booking reference to the clerk at my origin station (Northern), but they could not print the tickets. The ticket office staff member advised me that as my first train of the day was with Transpennine, and I had booked through Transpennine that I should board the train and contact the guard. I did this, but although the guard was satisfied with all the evidence provided and my itinerary matched the seat reservation system perfectly, even after supplying my bank card the guard could not issue a ticket on the day but was happy to allow me to travel on my itinerary. I suspect the issue was that I paid through paypal so although I supplied the correct bank card, that somehow masked my bank card from being recognised.

I then travelled on another TP service, which happened to be the same guard so after recognising me and a brief conversation they just moved on. I then boarded an LNER train where no ticket check was conducted. Finally, at Leeds I was waiting for the train on the platform to board the XC to Sheffield. I spotted the crew on the platform, briefly explained my situation, showed them my booking confirmation email, they said it was happening quite a lot recently and that it was no problem and I should board the train and they thanked me for asking them before boarding.

I was seated onboard just outside where the crew were basing themselves, so the person that I'd spoken to on the platform was quickly upon me and explained they'd come back to me to issue me a ticket after checking other passengers tickets. This same person explained my situation to the First Class Host who was also checking tickets before providing refreshments, and I was provided refreshments. After a short while, the original person who checked my ticket, came back and said they'd need my details to send a report to Transpennine to prevent this happening again. I allowed this person to photograph my driving license to complete their task. All this was done in an extremely friendly manner and it all just felt like great and pragmatic customer service at the time. Once again, the seat reservation system matched my itinerary (journey and seat). At no point did I speak to anyone identifying themselves as Revenue Protection and at no point was I 'questioned.' After that, I completed my journey.

Now, I've just received two of the following letters. I'm not sure why two, considering I only made one journey on XC.

Can anyone kindly advise how best to respond to this?


I was issued this ticket onboard by XC staff:

 

[Watershed]

I think my suspicions would have been aroused as soon as the guard asked for my name and address - this is normally only ever requested when a Ticket Irregularity Report (or equivalent) is completed, and in turn that only means one thing: trouble. However, obviously not everyone is necessarily aware of this.

Can you upload a screenshot showing a redacted copy of your booking confirmation email? Did you have an 8-digit collection reference number in there, and did you try to use this?

 

[AlterEgo]

It looks like you were issued a zero fare ticket and a TIR submitted. The big clue is asking for your personal details and ID and this is when you might have suspected things were about to go badly.

Was the ticket an Advance, or was it a First Off Peak/Anytime? Have you had to use the postal failure system before? (Where you call and are then provided with an 8 character collection code?)

 

[Iskra]

I think my suspicions would have been aroused as soon as the guard asked for my name and address - this is normally only ever requested when a Ticket Irregularity Report (or equivalent) is completed, and in turn that only means one thing: trouble. However, obviously not everyone is necessarily aware of this.

Can you upload a screenshot showing a redacted copy of your booking confirmation email? Did you have an 8-digit collection reference number in there, and did you try to use this?

But why allow me to board in the first place then?



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==

It looks like you were issued a zero fare ticket and a TIR submitted. The big clue is asking for your personal details and ID and this is when you might have suspected things were about to go badly.

Was the ticket an Advance, or was it a First Off Peak/Anytime? Have you had to use the postal failure system before? (Where you call and are then provided with an 8 character collection code?)

An advance. No, I've never used it but the number supplied in the email went to call failed- I demonstrated this to the TP guard onboard the train: the number supplied in my email is 03445565637 which even today, does not work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It looks like you were issued a zero fare ticket and a TIR submitted. The big clue is asking for your personal details and ID and this is when you might have suspected things were about to go badly.

Why on earth would a member of staff give permission to travel then issue a TIR? This is very bizarre indeed. Unless it was on the basis that they thought they would be able to print the booking.

 

[Haywain]

Can anyone kindly advise how best to respond to this?

Have you since collected the tickets?

 

[Iskra]

Have you since collected the tickets?

No, how would I go about doing that? I considered the matter done with after completing my journey. There was no indication whatsoever that I was in any form of bother. No forms were completed in front of me, it was all done in the galley area.

 

[Haywain]

No, how would I go about doing that? I considered the matter done with after completing my journey. There was no indication whatsoever that I was in any form of bother. No forms were completed in front of me, it was all done in the galley area.

Well, perhaps you could contact Transpennine? Your confirmation email should state whether the tickets are for collection or are eTickets, and if the latter you should be able to obtain them.

 

[Iskra]

Well, perhaps you could contact Transpennine? Your confirmation email should state whether the tickets are for collection or are eTickets, and if the latter you should be able to obtain them.

I have contacted TPE who say that if I email them, they can provide me with the tickets in question.

This all just seems like a total waste of my time from XC.

 

[kkong]

Wouldn't the 8-character CTR number (LW82K78K) at the top of the email screenshot in post #4 indicate these tickets were for collection by the customer from a TVM or ticket office?

It's been quite some time since I opted to receive tickets in the post, but do some TOCs use the CTR to print the tickets themselves, before posting them to the customer?

We can't see the rest of the email, but does it mention the fulfilment method (post or collection) further down?

 

[Haywain]

Wouldn't the 8-character CTR number (LW82K78K) at the top of the email screenshot in post #4 indicate these tickets were for collection by the customer from a TVM or ticket office?

Not necessarily - some retailers use a CTR for all bookings.

 

[Iskra]

Wouldn't the 8-character CTR number (LW82K78K) at the top of the email screenshot in post #4 indicate these tickets were for collection by the customer from a TVM or ticket office?

It's been quite some time since I opted to receive tickets in the post, but do some TOCs use the CTR to print the tickets themselves, before posting them to the customer?

We can't see the rest of the email, but does it mention the fulfilment method (post or collection) further down?

The email confirms delivery will be by post and then has my address, and then gives the telephone number that doesn't work to call if your tickets don't turn up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==

It looks like you were issued a zero fare ticket and a TIR submitted. The big clue is asking for your personal details and ID and this is when you might have suspected things were about to go badly.

Was the ticket an Advance, or was it a First Off Peak/Anytime? Have you had to use the postal failure system before? (Where you call and are then provided with an 8 character collection code?)

If I was travelling without a ticket, shouldn't I have had to buy a new one?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==

Why on earth would a member of staff give permission to travel then issue a TIR? This is very bizarre indeed. Unless it was on the basis that they thought they would be able to print the booking.

That is the annoying part at this point; if they'd have said no, I'd have just bought an off peak single at the time!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==

Wouldn't the 8-character CTR number (LW82K78K) at the top of the email screenshot in post #4 indicate these tickets were for collection by the customer from a TVM or ticket office?

It's been quite some time since I opted to receive tickets in the post, but do some TOCs use the CTR to print the tickets themselves, before posting them to the customer?

We can't see the rest of the email, but does it mention the fulfilment method (post or collection) further down?

My apologies, I accidentally uploaded a screenshot of a different booking for the same journey on a different date. I have now corrected it.

 

[AlterEgo]

If I was travelling without a ticket, shouldn't I have had to buy a new one?

The RPI seems to have accepted you weren't literally ticketless. If you have the wrong ticket, an incomplete ticket or there is something otherwise "irregular" with your travel documents one of the appropriate actions for the inspector to take is to fill out a TIR, and withdraw any ticket held and issue a zero fare to allow you to complete your journey.

 

[Iskra]

The RPI seems to have accepted you weren't literally ticketless. If you have the wrong ticket, an incomplete ticket or there is something otherwise "irregular" with your travel documents one of the appropriate actions for the inspector to take is to fill out a TIR, and withdraw any ticket held and issue a zero fare to allow you to complete your journey.

Thank you. It wasn't an RPI, it was a regular guard. None of this was explained to me at the time and it was made out that they were doing me a favour and it was some sort of routine admin task.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you. It wasn't an RPI, it was a regular guard. None of this was explained to me at the time and it was made out that they were doing me a favour and it was some sort of routine admin task.

I think in their mind it might have been - issue the TIR, give you an actual ticket to complete the journey (and importantly exit any barrier) - and then someone in the back office has just seen "oh he's ticketless, let's threaten prosecution".

If it had been me I would have been tempted to pass you anyway without the TIR given you were on an Advance, on the right train, with booking confirmation in hand, but that is the nature of discretion I suppose. In any case that course of action means you need to explain yet again at a barrier when you leave the train.

 

[Iskra]

I think in their mind it might have been - issue the TIR, give you an actual ticket to complete the journey (and importantly exit any barrier) - and then someone in the back office has just seen "oh he's ticketless, let's threaten prosecution".

If it had been me I would have been tempted to pass you anyway without the TIR given you were on an Advance, on the right train, with booking confirmation in hand, but that is the nature of discretion I suppose. In any case that course of action means you need to explain yet again at a barrier when you leave the train.

Yes, that would explain the complete divergence in attitude between on the day and today's letter. There were no barriers for me to pass through, my destination was Sheffield which has no barriers. I then bought a ticket and travelled to Meadowhall where my car was.

Anyway, we'll see what they say. Worse case scenario is I pay what they ask and then end all discretionary rail travel- it will save me a fortune!

 

[plymothian]

You have a £1.00 post charge - I suspect they're coming in the mail

 

[skyhigh]

You have a £1.00 post charge - I suspect they're coming in the mail

Yes that is the point - they were ordered for postal fulfilment but never arrived.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Aug 2023 ==

For what it's worth, Avanti have a staff brief out that there are known issues with some postal fulfilment from their site and some passengers have not received their tickets - passengers are to be advised to travel on their confirmation email or an Authority To Travel be issued if possible and the customer is using other TOCs.

As an ex-First TOC, I wonder if TPE are using the same fulfilment supplier for postal tickets?

 

[plymothian]

The cold hard facts are, once tickets have been chosen to be fulfilled by 1 method, they cannot be changed to anything else. As they're still in the post, they are not retrieveable by any other method.
As with all tickets, if you do not have them before travel you are obliged to buy new tickets and refund the unused ones.

An authorised person can permit you to travel and it is best to get this in writing but there is no obligation (it saves a lot of hassle though!), and depending on job role their authority is generally limited to their own TOC, which you have sought.

Your mitigation is

at Leeds I was waiting for the train on the platform to board the XC to Sheffield. I spotted the crew on the platform, briefly explained my situation, showed them my booking confirmation email, they said it was happening quite a lot recently and that it was no problem and I should board the train and they thanked me for asking them before boarding.

Proving that though will be a fight, but the onus is on the TOC to prove otherwise.

 

[cactustwirly]

There is an argument that it isn't within the spirit of the law to prosecute the OP as they clearly bought a ticket and postal delays are outside of their control.

 

[richw]

Not necessarily - some retailers use a CTR for all bookings.

GWR have them on their mobile app tickets.

 

[Haywain]

There is an argument that it isn't within the spirit of the law to prosecute the OP as they clearly bought a ticket and postal delays are outside of their control.

There is also an argument that it isn't unreasonable for XC to ask the OP to produce the ticket they didn't have at the time.

 

[AlterEgo]

The cold hard facts are, once tickets have been chosen to be fulfilled by 1 method, they cannot be changed to anything else.

That's not right.

As they're still in the post, they are not retrieveable by any other method.

Still not right. Tickets posted by first class post, if they have not arrived by the day of travel, are retrievable by the customer if they contact after sales, who then change the booking to a TVM/office collection. I have done this before as a customer, and organised this hundreds of times as a member of support staff. The issue here is the retailer failed the OP; they provided a number that didn't exist so the OP could not possibly have obtained their tickets.

As with all tickets, if you do not have them before travel you are obliged to buy new tickets and refund the unused ones.

No, not in the case of a retailer failing to deliver the tickets by whatever method, whether this is a broken TVM, faulty software on their end, closed ticket office, or postal failure. Legally, in the case of a postal failure, the retailer is responsible for the tickets and their replacement, not the customer. This is why there is a contingency method outlined above exists.

The OP has a defence, not mitigation.

 

[Haywain]

Still not right. Tickets posted by first class post, if they have not arrived by the day of travel, are retrievable by the customer if they contact after sales, who then change the booking to a TVM/office collection.

That is the creation of a duplicate booking, not a change to the original.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

Cross Country`s prosecution policy lays down both evidential and public interest tests. The above case fails both. It fails the evidential test not least because there would be no likelihood of conviction. Under RORA 1889, there can`t be an intention to avoid paying the fare when it has in fact been paid. Byelaw 18 (1) is defeated by 18 (3) (iii). Permission was given to board the train.

If it somehow were the case that the OP has committed an offence, the person accusing him is the one who enticed him into committing it.

 

[Iskra]

Thank you all. How should I proceed with my communications with XC? Just wait for the ticket from TPE and then send that?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thank you all. How should I proceed with my communications with XC? Just wait for the ticket from TPE and then send that?

I would wait for the tickets, send the originals and explain very similarly to how you did in the opening post. Feel free to post a draft before sending of course.

 

[richw]

No, not in the case of a retailer failing to deliver the tickets by whatever method, whether this is a broken TVM,

I had an issue with a failing TVM. It only printed 7/8 coupons
GWR web support gave me a reference to take to a ticket office. Ticket office insisted they couldn’t do anything despite the reference.
Went back to web support. They raised a case in their system and sent me an email within minutes authorising ticketless travel.
Ticket inspector and RPI were satisfied with the email I showed them

 

[Iskra]

I’ve received the following response today:

Good Morning,

Thank you for your recent email.

We can confirm that this matter has been closed and no further action will be taken against you.

Kind Regards,

I’m slightly disappointed about the lack of an apology. This matter has also wasted a significant amount of my time this week speaking to XC, TPE and Ircas (chargeable number) multiple times, spending time on hold, plus composing emails and the unnecessary worry.

Thanks to all on here who assisted- your kind advice did help put me at ease somewhat.