Ticket Irregularity Report Help Request - Transpennine Express

[Robbos]

Hello.

I received a ticket irregularity report from Transpennine Express and I am looking for advice about what I should do and whether I need legal representation.

A summary of the events is below.

Friday:
- Purchased a return ticket to Leeds from Macclesfield on Trainline app.
- The first train was delayed and an announcement was made by the train operator that passengers can apply for a refund due to delay.
- There was a discussion between passengers waiting to get off that the easiest and quickest way to apply for the refund was to refund the ticket through the trainline app directly.
- Planning to refund the ticket due to the delay, I arrived in Leeds to see the barriers up.
- I therefore bought another single ticket from Cottingly to Leeds to get through this barrier as my original ticket was refunded.

Sunday:
- I realised when at Leeds station that I would not be able to get through the Leeds barriers because I could not access my return ticket due to refunding it.
- In a panic and lack of judgement, I bought a single ticket from Leeds to Dewsbury to get through the barriers.
- Since looking through my ticket history, I realised I accidentally bought a child ticket for this. This was an honest mistake. I had been searching over the weekend for trains to take my younger 14 year old sibling away and accidentally bought the ticket as a child. I saw the discount applied when searching for train times and assumed this was due to the railcard discount, not the child discount.
- The inspector came round and I completely panicked in the situation. Instead of detailing any of the above, I lied in my panic and said that I didn't have time to get a valid ticket due to a 'family emergency'. There is no excuse for this. I have never been in trouble before. I am honest person and have never travelled with an invalid train ticket. I became flustered and lied.
- I told the inspector that I was travelling from Dewsbury to Manchester Picadilly, because I thought I had a valid ticket from Leeds to Dewsbury. However, this ticket was not valid because I accidentally bought a child ticket.
- I was issued a Ticket Irregularity Report by Transpennine Express.
- Once arriving at Manchester, I spoke to representatives of Transpennine Express to gain more information about the situation as I didn't absorb what the train inspector had said due to my panic.
- My phone charge was running low so I then bought a paper ticket, with my railcard, from Manchester Picadilly to Macclesfield. I did not want to run the risk of buying a trainline ticket and then being unable to show the ticket due to the low phone battery.

Since that weekend, I have researched the situation and realised that I mis-interpreted the refund policy and went about this the wrong way.
I admit that it was incorrect, and may be perceived as fraudulent of me, to have applied for a refund incorrectly, and then bought two smaller tickets to get through the barriers, essentially 'short-ticketing'. One of which was an accidental child ticket.
I should have scanned the full return ticket anyway and applied for a refund via the trainline website and not through the app.

For context about me, I have never broken the law or been in trouble with the law before. I have never received a fine for anything.

I am very career driven but I don't know how a criminal conviction would impact my career progression. Therefore, I am very keen to try and settle this out of court and avoid being charged with a criminal record.
I have just emptied my savings on buying a house so would prefer to avoid paying hundreds for legal representation but prefer that than a criminal record.

I have attached the ticket irregularity report and the letter I received through the post afterwards.

Do you have any guidance on the above please?

Thanks in advance.

 

[janb]

- Purchased a return ticket to Leeds from Macclesfield on Trainline app.
- The first train, between Macclesfield and Manchester Picadilly, was > 15 minutes delayed and an announcement was made by the train operator that passengers can apply for a refund due to delay.
- There was a discussion between passengers waiting to get off that the easiest and quickest way to apply for the refund was to refund the ticket through the trainline app directly.
...
I should have scanned the full return ticket anyway and applied for a refund via the trainline website and not through the app.

The real experts will be along with the real advice soon but just to clarify this.

If you travel with a ticket, completing your journey, and are delayed this is not a *refund* situation, instead you claim *delay repay compensation*. So in your situation you would have completed your journey to Leeds, and if you had been late into Leeds by 15 minutes or more due to the first train making you miss a connection then you would claim compensation from the operator of the first train.

Unfortunately language used by the industry can be loose around this leading to customer confusion.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hello.

I received a ticket irregularity report from Transpennine Express and I am looking for advice about what I should do and whether I need legal representation.

A summary of the events is below.

Friday 21st June:
- Purchased a return ticket to Leeds from Macclesfield on Trainline app.
- The first train, between Macclesfield and Manchester Picadilly, was > 15 minutes delayed and an announcement was made by the train operator that passengers can apply for a refund due to delay.
- There was a discussion between passengers waiting to get off that the easiest and quickest way to apply for the refund was to refund the ticket through the trainline app directly.
- Planning to refund the ticket due to the delay, I arrived in Leeds to see the barriers up. I did a quick search online and saw that the refund is invalid if the ticket is scanned.
- I therefore bought another single ticket from Cottingly to Leeds to get through this barrier.
- On Friday evening, I applied for a refund for the Macclesfield - Leeds return ticket through the trainline app.

Sunday 23rd June:
- I realised when at Leeds station that I would not be able to get through the Leeds barriers because I could not access my full Macclesfield to Leeds return ticket due to having applied for a refund on the Friday.
- In a panic and lack of judgement, I bought a single ticket from Leeds to Dewsbury to get through the barriers.
- Since looking through my ticket history, I realised I accidentally bought a child ticket for this. This was an honest mistake. I had been searching over the weekend for trains to take my younger 14 year old sibling away and accidentally bought the ticket as a child. I saw the discount applied when searching for train times and assumed this was due to the railcard discount, not the child discount.
- I got on the 14:00 train from Leeds to Manchester Picadilly.
- The inspector came round and I completely panicked in the situation. Instead of detailing any of the above, I lied in my panic and said that I didn't have time to get a valid ticket due to a 'family emergency'. There is no excuse for this. I have never been in trouble before. I am honest person and have never travelled with an invalid train ticket. I became flustered and lied.
- I told the inspector that I was travelling from Dewsbury to Manchester Picadilly, because I thought I had a valid ticket from Leeds to Dewsbury. However, this ticket was not valid because I accidentally bought a child ticket.
- I was issued a Ticket Irregularity Report by Transpennine Express.
- Once arriving at Manchester, I spoke to representatives of Transpennine Express to gain more information about the situation as I didn't absorb what the train inspector had said due to my panic.
- My phone charge was running low so I then bought a paper ticket, with my railcard, from Manchester Picadilly to Macclesfield. I did not want to run the risk of buying a trainline ticket and then being unable to show the ticket due to the low phone battery.

Since that weekend, I have researched the situation and realised that I mis-interpreted the refund policy and went about this the wrong way.
I admit that it was incorrect, and may be perceived as fraudulent of me, to have applied for a refund incorrectly, and then bought two smaller tickets to get through the barriers, essentially 'short-ticketing'. One of which was an accidental child ticket.
I should have scanned the full return ticket anyway and applied for a refund via the trainline website and not through the app.

For context about me, I am a 26 year old engineer and have never broken the law or been in trouble with the law before. I have never received a fine for anything. I am an honest person.

I am very career driven but I don't know how a criminal conviction would impact my career progression. Therefore, I am very keen to try and settle this out of court and avoid being charged with a criminal record.
I have just emptied my savings on buying a house so would prefer to avoid paying hundreds for legal representation but prefer that than a criminal record.

I have attached the ticket irregularity report and the letter I received through the post afterwards.

Do you have any guidance on the above please? I have spoken to one solicitor who said she has high confidence that they could convince TPE to settle out of court but am cautious that this may be a way of getting me to pay the legal fees.

Thanks in advance.

I think it's likely - but not guaranteed - that you will be able to settle this out of court with TPE: my recollection is that they prefer to do this rather than take people to court.

But as I think you have now realised, to a neutral observer (and even more to a non-neutral observer such as someone in TPE's compliance/prosecution office) what you have done looks fairly suspicious:

- you refunded a ticket which you had travelled on
- you bought a short ticket to essentially get you out through the barriers
- On your return journey, you bought a further short ticket to get in through the barriers. To add to what might be read as misbehaviour, this was a child ticket, and you were planning to travel further on the ticket which you had already refunded.
- as @janb has pointed out, you shouldn't have been trying to get a refund anyhow: you should have been claiming delay repay

It seems to me that your reply to TPE needs to be very apologetic indeed. Frankly, you did a lot of very silly things on your trip to and from Leeds, and you need to reassure the railway that you won't do any of them again. You also need to be absolutely certain that you have never done anything like this before in that the railway will very likely look at your ticket buying/refunding records - and if it shows a pattern of any of refunding, buying short distance tickets or buying child tickets then the railway would be likely to conclude that you were a habitual fare dodger. Habitual fare dodgers rarely get offered out of court settlements: instead, they get prosecuted.

But on the assumption that you have told us the truth (and we do try to believe what people tell us!) I'm hopeful that TPE will agree to an out of court settlement: that will mean you paying the full train fares that you should have paid (quite likely an anytime single fare to Leeds and an anytime single fare back, with no discount for either getting a return ticket or holding a railcard) plus the cost of the investigation (often around £150). Realistically, you don't need to employ a solicitor to deal with this.

If TPE's response is to take you to court, then you might want to think about using a solicitor. But at the very worst, try to be realistic to the harm a criminal record will do to you. While on the one hand it's obviously not good to have a criminal record, bear in mind that being convicted of fare dodging is very much at the minor end of the scale of criminal offences. Most employers would interpret it as one occasion of bad judgement rather than showing an irredeemable flaw in your character. You also need to know that there is the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act: minor criminal offences are not meant to stay with you for ever, and for most purposes if you are convicted of something like fare dodging then after a year you don't need to mention it, and no one is allowed to ask. This is for most purposes and not all, and the position depends on exactly what you are convicted of - but for the moment I think that's a good enough summary.

So even if you do go to court, it might be that taking the punch on your chin and not fighting it with a solicitor is actually the best approach. But be aware that the fine, costs and so on from a conviction is likely to be more expensive than the offer to settle out of court.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This is all a bit of a mess. My view is that if you co-operate with TPE you will almost certainly be offered an out of court settlement. I suggest drafting a response that includes the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

If you post up a copy of your reply here forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

One further thing to note is that TPE will probably research your Trainline ticket purchase history. Will this show any further suspicious activity such as refunds for a long distance journey followed by an immediate purchase of a short distance ticket from a nearby station? Will there be regular purchases of child tickets? If there further suspicious transactions then be aware that TPE might get in touch with you to ask questions about this at a later date.

 

[AlterEgo]

It doesn’t seem to add up that you thought the method of applying for delay compensation was a refund, which necessitated you to show the ticket was *unused*. How could that possibly be the case? How could it be so, that the way you got compensation for being inconvenienced was to ensure the ticket was not scanned at all, and in the process apparently forcing you to buy a short ticket to exit the station?

The company may decide to look into your purchase and refund history and see if there are any other examples of refunds followed by short ticketing. I’m afraid this explanation you’ve given will only make the train company more suspicious of your motives, which, given the evidence, seem to plainly suggest deliberate short faring.

 

[Robbos]

Thanks all for your detailed responses @janb , @Hadders , @Fawkes Cat , @AlterEgo .

To answer a few questions, I have never bought child tickets or short-fared before. Looking at my history, I have refunded exactly 3 unscanned tickets a while ago (very stupidly) and these amount to < £40. I have not incorrectly refunded or bought invalid tickets other than those so I wouldn't call myself a 'habitual fare dodger' but I know TPE may think differently.

I have not mentioned the 3 unscanned and refunded tickets in my draft response. Do you think it is worth doing so or waiting for further correspondence?

I have written the draft response letter below. Please could you let me know if it sounds apologetic enough or needs improving?

Thanks in advance.

"Dear Sir / Madam,

In regard to your letter (reference XXXXX), I confirm that I did not have a valid ticket when stopped by the Revenue Protection Officer on [date] and for this, I am truly regretful.

I understand that it is my responsibility to ensure I carry a valid ticket for every journey I take. Travelling without one, under any circumstance, is illegal and irresponsible, and I take full responsibility. I offer my deepest apologies and would like to work with you to rectify this issue.

Full details of my journey are below. Evidence of rail tickets and my rail card is enclosed.

Friday:
-Adult return ticket to Leeds from Macclesfield purchased on the Trainline app.
-The first train was over 15 minutes delayed.
-The train operator announced that passengers can apply for a delay refund. I was incorrectly advised that the quickest way to apply for the refund was to refund the ticket through the trainline app directly.
-I arrived in Leeds where the barriers were up. I incorrectly believed the delay refund would be invalid if the ticket was scanned.
- I bought a single ticket from Cottingly to Leeds to get through this barrier.
-On Friday evening, I applied for a refund for the Macclesfield - Leeds return ticket through the trainline app.

Sunday:
- I realised that I would not be able to get through the Leeds barriers because I refunded my full Macclesfield to Leeds return ticket.
- In a panic and lack of judgement, I bought a single ticket from Leeds to Dewsbury.
- On the train, when conversing with the Revenue Protection Officer, I panicked and lied, blaming my lack of ticket on rushing due to a ‘family emergency’.
- I told the inspector that I was travelling from Dewsbury to Manchester Picadilly, because I thought I had a valid ticket from Leeds to Dewsbury.
- I was issued a Ticket Irregularity Report by Transpennine Express.
- At Manchester, I bought a paper ticket from Picadilly to Macclesfield.
- Post journey, I realised I accidentally bought a child ticket from Leeds - Dewsbury. This was an honest mistake. I had been searching over the weekend to take my younger siblings away and accidentally bought a child ticket. I saw the discount applied when searching for train times and assumed this was due to the railcard discount, not the child discount. I have never short-fared before.

Regardless of mis-interpreting the refund policy, I acted incorrectly throughout the events, and I understand it may be perceived as fraudulent of me. Please be assured that I have never travelled with a child ticket or short-fared before and I commit to vigilently ensure that I pay for the correct services provided in the future.
I have learned the importance of ensuring correct fare purchase and fare understanding, in addition to how I have impacted Transpennine Express. I do not wish to contribute to any revenue lost by the rail industry.

I respectfully ask if you would please consider resolving this matter without court action. I am committed to paying the outstanding fares and any administration costs incurred by the Transpennine Express.

Thank you for allowing me a chance to reply.
I look forward to your response.

Sincerely"

 

[30907]

In view of what you have said about refunding used tickets, I would agree with not mentioning your previous fraudulent behaviour - but I would also delete the sentence "please be assured" - on this occasion you both intentionally short-fared AND bought a child ticket, and you have previously found ways of not paying.

I would also delete the blow-by-blow account of your ticketing, including the duff information given by a fellow-passenger ("I was advised" implies something official, when "someone said" would be more accurate). If you like, say that you were confused by the difference between a Refund and Delay Repay and leave it at that.

TPE are not particularly interested in how many offences you committed, and your account of events reads as if it was written by someone who knows their way round the system - I am sorry to have to say this, and I hope I am maligning you.

Keep the whole thing short and apologetic, and TPE may well settle.

 

[AlterEgo]

In view of what you have said about refunding used tickets, I would agree with not mentioning your previous fraudulent behaviour - but I would also delete the sentence "please be assured" - on this occasion you both intentionally short-fared AND bought a child ticket, and you have previously found ways of not paying.

I would also delete the blow-by-blow account of your ticketing, including the duff information given by a fellow-passenger ("I was advised" implies something official, when "someone said" would be more accurate). If you like, say that you were confused by the difference between a Refund and Delay Repay and leave it at that.

TPE are not particularly interested in how many offences you committed, and your account of events reads as if it was written by someone who knows their way round the system - I am sorry to have to say this, and I hope I am maligning you.

Keep the whole thing short and apologetic, and TPE may well settle.

I agree with this. Keep it short and simple. Three or four paragraphs maximum.

 

[Robbos]

I would also delete the blow-by-blow account of your ticketing, including the duff information given by a fellow-passenger ("I was advised" implies something official, when "someone said" would be more accurate). If you like, say that you were confused by the difference between a Refund and Delay Repay and leave it at that.

Thanks @30907 and @AlterEgo .

In the description of my version of events, if I just mention being confused between the difference between a refund and delay repay, admit to lying to the officer, and then mention how I had purchased a ticket from Leeds to Dewsbury, do you believe this is sufficient at this point? And to not mention the accidental child ticket?

Or is it best to include the additional bits of information from the onset as they will find that anyway if they look into my account history?

 

[30907]

You need to admit refunding the original ticket obviously.
You also need to admit (deliberately) buying a ticket to Dewsbury when you should have bought a ticket to Macclesfield, and to (carelessly) doing so at child rate.
Better to state the facts that you  know they already know.

Bear in mind that your ticket purchases overall look intentional, whether or not it was, so you heed to get TPE on your side - write straightforwardly without making excuses.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Thanks @30907 and @AlterEgo .

In the description of my version of events, if I just mention being confused between the difference between a refund and delay repay, admit to lying to the officer, and then mention how I had purchased a ticket from Leeds to Dewsbury, do you believe this is sufficient at this point? And to not mention the accidental child ticket?

Or is it best to include the additional bits of information from the onset as they will find that anyway if they look into my account history?

If you read through other threads on this forum you will find that different people offer different advice: some point out that you have the right not to incriminate yourself and so should stick strictly to only answering questions you have been asked while others (or maybe it's just me) see merit in being fully open and being seen to be co-operative.

So it's probably no surprise that I suggest disclosing the child ticket - but for the slightly different reason that it's information that it will be very easy for the railway to find out: it's not as if they will need to dig back months or years to find it. And if (as I am assuming) the railway already know about it then they will take it into account to your detriment: by volunteering the information you can make it clear that you're not trying to hide anything, which supports the message of 'innocent mistake' which you are trying to put across.

 

[jamiearmley]

If you read through other threads on this forum you will find that different people offer different advice: some point out that you have the right not to incriminate yourself and so should stick strictly to only answering questions you have been asked while others (or maybe it's just me) see merit in being fully open and being seen to be co-operative.

So it's probably no surprise that I suggest disclosing the child ticket - but for the slightly different reason that it's information that it will be very easy for the railway to find out: it's not as if they will need to dig back months or years to find it. And if (as I am assuming) the railway already know about it then they will take it into account to your detriment: by volunteering the information you can make it clear that you're not trying to hide anything, which supports the message of 'innocent mistake' which you are trying to put across.

I second this.

It's also worth considering that anything declared and dealt with now, will be finished with. Anything undeclared and identified at a later date could potentially be dealt with as a separate issue.

 

[Robbos]

Ok thank you everyone. I have certainly learned a lot through this incident so far.
I'll include all relevant detail as I'd rather be honest and clear from the get-go.

Final question: I'm assuming it's best to send all evidence of tickets and rail cards through with the response letter now instead of supplying later if asked?

I'll let you know what happens as I've read that some of you find it useful to see where cases get to.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Final question: I'm assuming it's best to send all evidence of tickets and rail cards through with the response letter now instead of supplying later if asked?

Yes. You want the railway to be able to see that everything is straightforward at one go, and hopefully decide that the matter can be resolved out of court.

 

[Robbos]

Hi everyone. I just want to say a big thank you for all of your help. The end result is that I paid the outstanding fare of £22, along with a pre-court settlement fee of £50.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi everyone. I just want to say a big thank you for all of your help. The end result is that I paid the outstanding fare of £22, along with a pre-court settlement fee of £50.

That's a good result! The important thing now is not to get in trouble over your tickets again: the railway are unlikely to be so sympathetic next time (if there is a next time).