Ticket irregularity report from TPE. Please help

[dzign1]

Hello

A few days ago i was given a ticket irregularity report from a TransPennine express revenue protection officer for travelling with an expired railcard travelling from Parbold to Manchester Airport having not set foot on a TPE train, only Northern. At the time I was unaware of this and I take full respnsibility for not checking. However, at the time of being stopped at the gate the revenue protection officer said i'd have to hand over my details - i fully co-operated expecting I'd be given a penalty fare. The card itself expired on the 2nd Jan and I travelled on the 5th Jan. At the time I wasn't aware of what this report was but having read some of the threads it seems like i'd be in less trouble if i'd just not paid the fare. What normally happens here? To me it seems crazy that if you make an honest mistake like this you can be slapped with a court settlement of almost £200 when I bought a ticket and only saved £2 by adding a railcard.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Welcome to the forum!

What will happen next is that TPE will do some research in the background (checking Trainline and so on) to check that you haven't any ticket irregularities. Given that your railcard only expired 3 days before you were picked up, it's likely that they won't find very much in the way of wrong fares being bought.

They will then write to you asking for your side of the story. If they have found evidence of previous fare dodging, they may well ask about that as well.

That will be your opportunity to convince the railway that you're not going to do this again. There are a number of ways of doing this, but as you will have seen if you look round the forum @Hadders gives some excellent advice on the sort of thing to say.

TPE will then consider what you have said. If you are lucky, they will be convinced by your argument and offer you the chance to settle out of court for the train fare you should have paid and 'the cost of the investigation'. As you have spotted, this is liable to be around £200 in total.

Although you travelled on a Northern train, there are arrangements for all the railway companies to act on each other's behalf, so there's no likelihood of the matter being dropped because it was TPE who you talked to. And you will see that there is some discussion at the moment on this forum about whether what the railway charges is fair - but for the moment, that's how it is so that's what you will have to cope with. I'm sorry if that sounds unsympathetic!

 

[dzign1]

Welcome to the forum!

What will happen next is that TPE will do some research in the background (checking Trainline and so on) to check that you haven't any ticket irregularities. Given that your railcard only expired 3 days before you were picked up, it's likely that they won't find very much in the way of wrong fares being bought.

They will then write to you asking for your side of the story. If they have found evidence of previous fare dodging, they may well ask about that as well.

That will be your opportunity to convince the railway that you're not going to do this again. There are a number of ways of doing this, but as you will have seen if you look round the forum @Hadders gives some excellent advice on the sort of thing to say.

TPE will then consider what you have said. If you are lucky, they will be convinced by your argument and offer you the chance to settle out of court for the train fare you should have paid and 'the cost of the investigation'. As you have spotted, this is liable to be around £200 in total.

Although you travelled on a Northern train, there are arrangements for all the railway companies to act on each other's behalf, so there's no likelihood of the matter being dropped because it was TPE who you talked to. And you will see that there is some discussion at the moment on this forum about whether what the railway charges is fair - but for the moment, that's how it is so that's what you will have to cope with. I'm sorry if that sounds unsympathetic!

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. To me this seems completely absurd. At no point have I ever dodged a fare and I could be liable for around 4x what a penalty fare would cost for simply dodging the fare completely

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@dzign1. Just to add to what @Fawkes Cat has said, if you engage appropriately with the train company's investigation team, you should, almost certainly, be able to negotiate a so-called "out of court settlement". Expect to have to pay the full undiscounted Anytime Day Single from Parbold to Manchester Airport (= £15.00) plus maybe a low three figure sum towards their admin and investigation costs.

Presume this was a one-off incident, and you haven't purchased tickets with railcard discounts on other occasions and then travelled when you didn't also have an accompanying, in date, valid railcard.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. To me this seems completely absurd. At no point have I ever dodged a fare and I could be liable for around 4x what a penalty fare would cost for simply dodging the fare completely

Just for clarity - you could in theory have been given a Penalty Fare or a Ticket Irregularity Report (ie details taken for investigation of the issue) - sounds like you got the latter. You are not correct to say that you would have automatically got a £100 Penalty Fare by simply dodging the fare completely.

There is no automatic right to a Penalty Fare and they are not given to everyone who has no ticket (which your post implies you may think) - anyone they suspect of deliberate fare dodging is very likely to get reported for prosecution in fact. Also not all staff can issue Penalty Fares so if the staff who checked your ticket can not issue one, then they have no alternative but to take your details and report it for investigation. I suspect that is what has happened here.

But yes it is bad luck as in many cases a Penalty Fare paid promptly (£50 off) could turn out to be cheaper 'punishment' for not having the correct ticket.

When you hear from the Railway about this, head back for more advice on how to respond as people will be able to help you get the best outcome you can given the situation, and how best to reply, which it will be important to do to avoid risk of any unintentional escalation of this to court.

 

[dzign1]

Thanks for all the responses and advice. This is definitely one of the worst sides of the Railway i've seen.

 

[Bungle158]

Thanks for all the responses and advice. This is definitely one of the worst sides of the Railway i've seen.

What we have here is a strict liability offence. A bit like driving home from an MOT but getting reported for say a tail light out. You would still be guilty, even if the ink on the pass certificate was not yet dry.

I think you would be better to pay a settlement., should that be available. Going down the court route would be stressful, lead to an almost inevitable conviction and potentially bigger financial hit.

 

[MotCO]

To help illustrate that it was an isolated incident, you should renew your railcard at the earliest opportunity (if you have not done so already) and refer to this in your response when you are asked. Plus, put a reminder on your phone for when it expires so you remember to renew next year.

 

[dzign1]

To help illustrate that it was an isolated incident, you should renew your railcard at the earliest opportunity (if you have not done so already) and refer to this in your response when you are asked. Plus, put a reminder on your phone for when it expires so you remember to renew next year.

Appreciate the suggestion. As I mentioned before in the thread. The £150+ i'd pay to settle is probably going to wipe out any benefit i've had in 4 years of having a railcard as i'm not a frequent user of the railway. Defeats the point of buying a new one if you're running this risk if you forget to renew. As i've learned, it's so easily done

 

[fandroid]

Appreciate the suggestion. As I mentioned before in the thread. The £150+ i'd pay to settle is probably going to wipe out any benefit i've had in 4 years of having a railcard as i'm not a frequent user of the railway. Defeats the point of buying a new one if you're running this risk if you forget to renew. As i've learned, it's so easily done

That's a valid point in your case, but most Railcard holders do renew before buying their next discounted tickets. The system is flawed in that reminders aren't consistently sent out and the punishment can be quite disproportionate in the case of one-off errors.

 

[dzign1]

What we have here is a strict liability offence. A bit like driving home from an MOT but getting reported for say a tail light out. You would still be guilty, even if the ink on the pass certificate was not yet dry.

I think you would be better to pay a settlement., should that be available. Going down the court route would be stressful, lead to an almost inevitable conviction and potentially bigger financial hit.

Sadly you're right.

 

[dzign1]

That's a valid point in your case, but most Railcard holders do renew before buying their next discounted tickets. The system is flawed in that reminders aren't consistently sent out and the punishment can be quite disproportionate in the case of one-off errors.

It sounds like it depends on who your rail company is. Some are more pragmatic than others.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

This is an unfortunate situation, a bit like the MOT situation referenced above or a careful driver getting caught a few mph above the speed limit.

Transpennine Express are usually one of the more pragmatic train companies in dealing with issues like this and I would expect them to offer you an out of court settlement as long as you send a suitable reply to their letter, and you haven't come to their attention before. Feel free to upload a copy of the letter when it comes (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[John R]

Welcome to the forum!

This is an unfortunate situation, a bit like the MOT situation referenced above or a careful driver getting caught a few mph above the speed limit.

The speed limit one is a particularly good analogy. You can have every intention of staying within the law but a momentary lapse of attention is picked up by a camera and you are suddenly the wrong side of it.

And in that case the equivalent of the out of court settlement is the speed awareness course which typically costs around £100, together with some of your time, to avoid getting points on your licence. But it’s only available once, so after that you need to be extra careful as a second offence will be dealt with more severely.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The speed limit one is a particularly good analogy. You can have every intention of staying within the law but a momentary lapse of attention is picked up by a camera and you are suddenly the wrong side of it.

And in that case the equivalent of the out of court settlement is the speed awareness course which typically costs around £100, together with some of your time, to avoid getting points on your licence. But it’s only available once, so after that you need to be extra careful as a second offence will be dealt with more severely.

Pedant alert! You can do another speed awareness if you're caught again after three years. I know, not because I've done two, but because I teach them. But re-offending rates are very low. Maybe the railway could offer courses on how fare evasion affects the business and others and people learn the ramifications of what they have done!
Although a big difference is that people, generally, acknowledge they were speeding and the signage was clear. Railway ticketing is often far from clear and what some staff will permit regularly is then not permitted by someone else.

 

[John R]

Pedant alert! You can do another speed awareness if you're caught again after three years. I know, not because I've done two, but because I teach them.

Thanks for the clarification (though hopefully it’s not a piece of information that I will ever need to be mindful of!)

 

[AlterEgo]

Pedant alert! You can do another speed awareness if you're caught again after three years. I know, not because I've done two, but because I teach them. But re-offending rates are very low. Maybe the railway could offer courses on how fare evasion affects the business and others and people learn the ramifications of what they have done!
Although a big difference is that people, generally, acknowledge they were speeding and the signage was clear. Railway ticketing is often far from clear and what some staff will permit regularly is then not permitted by someone else.

I don’t think people care, or really ought to care, too heavily about the revenue implications of having no ticket.

The speed awareness courses are good because they undoubtedly save lives and prevent serious injury.