Ticket Inspector Authority

[superkopite]

Rather frequently over the past few months, I have seen Southeastern-uniformed ticket inspectors checking tickets on Thameslink services. I assume they have GTR's permission to do this, but it made me question, as a passenger, am I expected to understand that this is the case? Who else should I reasonably assume has the authority to check my tickets on a Thameslink service, TfL staff, Avanti, Network Rail, BTP, etc. I genuinely have no idea. I had assumed that certainly whilst onboard, I would only ever be challenged by an employee of the operating company who had an ID to match. Does anyone know what the actual criteria is?

 

[transportphoto]

From a legal viewpoint, any authorised person (as defined in the Railway Bylaws):

In these byelaws the following expressions have the following meanings:

“authorised person” means:

1.a person acting in the course of his duties who:

(a) is an employee or agent of an operator

or

(b) any other person authorised by an operator

or

2.any constable, acting in the execution of his duties upon or in connection with the railway

You would therefore be in breach of Bylaw 18(2) for failing to hand over your ticket for inspection to any authorised person, regardless of uniform, employer, etc:

a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person

I agree can be confusing - the simple answer is any railway staff can request to see any ticket when acting in accordance with their duties.

(https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/railway-byelaws/railway-byelaws)

 

[AlterEgo]

Any authorised person can check the tickets of any passenger. It doesn’t matter what company they work for.

I’m sure this thread will descend into nit picking but it is basically always obvious at the time that someone is entitled to check your ticket and it is definitely possible to overthink these things.

 

[bramling]

Any authorised person can check the tickets of any passenger. It doesn’t matter what company they work for.

I’m sure this thread will descend into nit picking but it is basically always obvious at the time that someone is entitled to check your ticket and it is definitely possible to overthink these things.

There have been cases where people have dressed themselves up in something resembling a uniform and started checking tickets. In the case I’m thinking of the individual concerned was taking a particular interest in lone women. I forget what the outcome was, but BTP were certainly involved.

 

[AlterEgo]

There have been cases where people have dressed themselves up in something resembling a uniform and started checking tickets. In the case I’m thinking of the individual concerned was taking a particular interest in lone women. I forget what the outcome was, but BTP were certainly involved.

Here we go! Looking forward to a rehash of "what does an employee ID look like".

 

[scrapy]

There have been cases where people have dressed themselves up in something resembling a uniform and started checking tickets. In the case I’m thinking of the individual concerned was taking a particular interest in lone women. I forget what the outcome was, but BTP were certainly involved.

About 20 years ago I came across somebody on Manchester Metrolink asking for tickets around Market St/Piccadilly Gardens saying they were a plain clothes ticket inspector. Anyone without a ticket they were asking for £10 on the spot cash to avoid paying £20 penalty. Of course they were pocketing the cash. They looked possibly homeless. I contacted Metrolink who confirmed they didn't have plain clothes inspectors.

They actually made about £40 for 5 minutes work.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

About 20 years ago I came across somebody on Manchester Metrolink asking for tickets around Market St/Piccadilly Gardens saying they were a plain clothes ticket inspector. Anyone without a ticket they were asking for £10 on the spot cash to avoid paying £20 penalty. Of course they were pocketing the cash.

As scams go, that's not a bad one, and the only suckers to fall for it will have been chancers without tickets! :~)

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

If in doubt, ask to see their authorised collectors license. Southeasterns ones are yellow and at the Bottom have the TOCs that they are authorised to check/issue on behalf of, these being Southeatern, Southern, Thameslink, Gatwick Express and Great Northern

 

[185]

I contacted Metrolink who confirmed they didn't have plain clothes inspectors. They actually made about £40 for 5 minutes work.

Metrolink did for many, many years have plain clothes ops. These were stopped in 2017 (after someone went out dressed as father christmas - imagine getting a fine off him).

Metrolink plain clothes ops worked as such...
Stations A, B and C.
Staff in plain clothes would board at station A or C and travel between those stops.
Fare evaders would be ejected to uniformed inspectors at station B who usually had police assisting.

Anyone in plain clothes must have a lanyard with their redacted staff Photo ID on show (ie inspector number only, no name).

 

[island]

If in doubt, ask to see their authorised collectors license. Southeasterns ones are yellow and at the Bottom have the TOCs that they are authorised to check/issue on behalf of, these being Southeatern, Southern, Thameslink, Gatwick Express and Great Northern

It should be noted that "authorised collector" ID cards are only required when issuing a Penalty Fare.

 

[Undiscovered]

I would suggest that, if you're in any doubt as to the validity of an onboard person, or persons, you contact the Guard and have them verify their identity. Failing that, on a DOO service, use the Call For Aid/Assistance and speak to the Driver.

After all, if they're not legitimate staff, then they're crooks.

 

[bramling]

Here we go! Looking forward to a rehash of "what does an employee ID look like".

In my view it’s a serious point. Anyone conducting any business which potentially involves extracting money off people should have very robust means of official identification.

 

[LowLevel]

It's unusual but not unheard of - EMT RPOs used to conduct revenue operations for Northern in South Yorkshire until Northern got their own staff. They mostly used to do station blocks at places like Chapeltown.

 

[reb0118]

Failing that, on a DOO service, use the Call For Aid/Assistance and speak to the Driver.

Who resets the call for aid? Can it be done remotely without stopping the train? Would a revenue matter justify stopping the train?...

Probably the easiest way to avoid situations like these is to ensure that you have a valid ticket prior to boarding the train.

 

[RJ]

Metrolink did for many, many years have plain clothes ops. These were stopped in 2017 (after someone went out dressed as father christmas - imagine getting a fine off him).

 

[Undiscovered]

Who resets the call for aid? Can it be done remotely without stopping the train? Would a revenue matter justify stopping the train?...

Probably the easiest way to avoid situations like these is to ensure that you have a valid ticket prior to boarding the train.

Driver resets a a CFA and it won't put the brake in like a traditional PassComm (Passenger Communication Cord/Button).
And no, a revenue matter wouldn't justify pulling it, but being robbed or otherwise subject to a crime would be, which is what's happening if you're questioning the validity/authenticity if any ID being shown to you.

 

[AdamWW]

Probably the easiest way to avoid situations like these is to ensure that you have a valid ticket prior to boarding the train.

It's not inconcievable that someone pretending to be an RPI might also pretend that someone's ticket was invalid.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

It should be noted that "authorised collector" ID cards are only required when issuing a Penalty Fare.

^^^

 

[43066]

I have seen Southeastern-uniformed ticket inspectors checking tickets on Thameslink services. I assume they have GTR's permission to do this, but it made me question, as a passenger, am I expected to understand that this is the case?

You might see Southeastern uniformed drivers and guards working Southern Tonbridge services via Redhill, and SE drivers also used to drive TL services. As a passenger you’re expected to understand they have GTRs “permission” to do so!

I would suggest that, if you're in any doubt as to the validity of an onboard person, or persons, you contact the Guard and have them verify their identity. Failing that, on a DOO service, use the Call For Aid/Assistance and speak to the Driver.

After all, if they're not legitimate staff, then they're crooks.

This really only applies to the tiny minority of cases where someone is obviously suspicious, though (eg someone claiming to be a RPI asking you for money). SE RPIs conducting revenue inspection on GTR services would not be remotely suspicious.

It's not inconcievable that someone pretending to be an RPI might also pretend that someone's ticket was invalid.

As noted above, this is straying into nitpicking.

It’s a question of what is more likely; if the person is legitimate, and they will be in 99.9% of cases, and you refuse to show your ticket, you will be committing an offence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 May 2023 ==

There have been cases where people have dressed themselves up in something resembling a uniform and started checking tickets. In the case I’m thinking of the individual concerned was taking a particular interest in lone women. I forget what the outcome was, but BTP were certainly involved.

Enthusiasts playing dress up and impersonating staff members is certainly not unknown, albeit generally not of the RPI variety - most recently we had one pretending to be a freight driver and asking for cab rides, but was caught out when staff asked for his ID. It got to the stage of the signaller calling drivers approaching a particular location to look out for him!

There was also a regular at the station next to my old depot who would dress in a non-railway viz, blow a whistle and bark orders at passengers on the platforms. He ended up being barred from the station IIRC!