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Ticket Gates

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Aictos

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I went though Haymarket twice this year and I don't recall it being a underground station unlike City Thameslink, St Pancras (FCC Platforms), Old Street, Moorgate, Sunderland which certainly are.
 
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imagination

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I went though Haymarket twice this year and I don't recall it being a underground station unlike City Thameslink, St Pancras (FCC Platforms), Old Street, Moorgate, Sunderland which certainly are.

One end of it is underground. Most of it isn't though.
 

9K43

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British Rail caused this problem by getting rid of barrier controls on Stations in the 1980's.
This idea was called ' The Open Station Concept. '
This was just another cost cutting episode.
BR must have lost £'s millions nationwide.
I once landed at Sheffield Midland on my way back from road learning some where.
I was asked if I would work a DMU from Sheffield to Huddersfield via Barnsley as the guard.
As I did not do tickets, I was told to work the train and let the passengers ride for nowt.
I had the route knowledge for the job, so off we went.
This was a rather nice summers day, and a nice way of getting back home.
 

Tom B

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The point re: keeping tickets is an important one, especially since tickets must be submitted for expenses claims, not to mention delay refunds etc. In such a case are you entitled to insist you are let through the manned gate and keep your ticket?
 

MidnightFlyer

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The point re: keeping tickets is an important one, especially since tickets must be submitted for expenses claims, not to mention delay refunds etc. In such a case are you entitled to insist you are let through the manned gate and keep your ticket?

i just say I want to keep the ticket as a souvenir - if you insist on keeping your ticket for a good reason, the gateline team let you through :D
 

GB

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Can you not ask for a receipt when buying the ticket? Or, as the barriers are always manned, just ask who ever is on the gate line to let you through the fast track/oversized part.
 

Matt Taylor

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All tickets remain property of the TOC at all times, staff will generally let you keep a ticket if required although in certain circumstances your request may be refused.
 

Daniel

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The problem with using gates as a means of revenue protection is that they are not staffed with revenue protection inspectors, they're staffed with customer service assistants. Meaning if I know someone is going to evade their fare, I have to watch them do it, I can't intervene. And I don't see how they stop druggies - pop down to one of my stations any night and you'll see.
 

jon0844

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London is mostly protected for the tube, but they're manned whenever the station is open (and if not, left open). In principle, I think they're ideal. If you knew they would be in operation until the last train has left, you couldn't try to get by without buying a ticket.

And, you then complement these with revenue staff that check tickets on trains; checking people are on the right train, aren't in first class with a standard ticket, or overriding (or indeed, getting a ticket from the station before just to get out the gates). The same staff also provide a visible staff presence and reassurance, especially at night.

For there to be a proper deterrent, you have to do things properly. Once you do, there's really no way for anyone to try it on (and those that don't have a ticket are far more likely to be almost certainly telling the truth).

The problem is that once you do that, you cut fraud significantly and although ticket revenues may increase, that won't be seen as being down to the security. No, that will be down to 'growth', and with no money being generated in fines - all that security will be considered a waste of time 'because there's no fraud'. They'll be cut.

Only the DfT can solve this by making it a requirement of future franchises. Nobody will do it voluntarily.
 
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jopsuk

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Aye. Here's the story. It's not 100% clear about whether they're doing Central High Level, though. That would certainly be a challenge!
Would it really be more of a challenge than London terminals such as Victoria, Paddington etc that have had barrier lines installed? Could even do something similar to Waverly, and barrier the "commuter" platforms but not the "Intercity" platforms (even with the situation that "commuter" trains may still use the "intercity" platforms)
 

Daniel

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In principle, I think they're ideal. If you knew they would be in operation until the last train has left, you couldn't try to get by without buying a ticket.

Please, remember that gatelines are not ideal. Admittedly they stop the chancers, but those who are determined not to pay can simply double-through, jump the barrier, or, with the new WAG gates, you can simply walk through them, they're too weak to stop you.

Gatelines are not an alternative to revenue inspectors - and staffing gatelines with CSA's isn't an answer, as they're not allowed to do anything with regards to protecting revenue.
 

Fred26

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Please, remember that gatelines are not ideal. Admittedly they stop the chancers, but those who are determined not to pay can simply double-through, jump the barrier, or, with the new WAG gates, you can simply walk through them, they're too weak to stop you.

If the barriers were not there, it would be even easier for people to walk through to the platforms without a ticket. 'Those who are determined not to pay' will always find a way to travel for free. Unless you're going to have hordes of staff on the barriers checking tickets and on the platforms again, checking tickets (in case someone has jumped the fence), you'll never catch everyone.

Gatelines are not an alternative to revenue inspectors - and staffing gatelines with CSA's isn't an answer, as they're not allowed to do anything with regards to protecting revenue.

FCC gatelines are manned with RCO's. They are basically RPI's, but they don't check the trains. They can sell excess tickets and penalty fare.
 

me123

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Would it really be more of a challenge than London terminals such as Victoria, Paddington etc that have had barrier lines installed? Could even do something similar to Waverly, and barrier the "commuter" platforms but not the "Intercity" platforms (even with the situation that "commuter" trains may still use the "intercity" platforms)

They have done that at Edinburgh Waverley! And it's a pretty good layout. Scotrail also employ traditional barriers for other incoming services (eg, North Berwick services, those on Platform 10, 11, 7, 8, 9, 19...) that use the "intercity" platforms.

Glasgow Central, as I say, is more difficult if they do it. There's not enough room to (realistically) barrier each individual platform. The platforms aren't in a straight line, and there are quite a few retail outlets on the passenger side of the barriers. One solution could be to build the retail outlets into the barrier, so that they can serve customers on both sides (but I don't know it it's feasible). And then, I don't know if Virgin Trains and East Coast and TPE want barriers. TPE in particular seem to make their passengers queue at the foot of the platform anyway and check all the tickets there.

It's not impossible, but it's more of a challenge than Queen Street.
 

cuccir

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In my experience they're good at commuter stations or smaller stations on mainlines, particularly where there are 4 platforms or fewer. My local, Durham, is a good example of their use - a lot of short distance journeys to Newcastle + Darlington carried out on long, busy trains. It's impractical for regular on-train checks to occur, so making people get some sort of ticket - even if they chance it with a cheaper one - is good stuff.

I'm less keen at large stations, such as Newcastle, as they can damage architecture, restrict access to businesses, cash machines, toilets, and create extremely busy nodes of pedestrian movement etc...
 

scrapy

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Please, remember that gatelines are not ideal. Admittedly they stop the chancers, but those who are determined not to pay can simply double-through, jump the barrier, or, with the new WAG gates, you can simply walk through them, they're too weak to stop you.

Surely this proves the case for them. I'd rather the barriers take a beating than an on train conductor who is on their own. Determined fare dodgers simply refuse to pay or lie about where they got on, so on train checks are not the only solution.
 

daccer

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As with most things in life the ticket barrier question will always be a compromise and as such it will always be an imperfect system. However for me it is more about the deterrent factor than the actual 'catching' of fare dodgers. As pointed out before a determined dodger will avoid paying whatever the system in place - even bodies on the ground aren't a foolpoof system. It does seem now that TOC's see the barriers as a 'first' line of defense. The second line being on board checking and the third line maybe spot checks and random searches etc. As profit is the no.1 concern of all the TOC's (they are private companies with shareholders on the whole) the installation of ticket barriers must be a cost effective way of increasing revenue, if it wasn't then they wouldn't do it. When all is said and done if we all paid the fare and travelled legally we wouldn't need barriers. In today's world where personal responsibility is long gone it seems relying on people's honesty is no longer enough.

As long as the footfall at a station can justify the capex of installation I can see ticket barriers ending up on all major and intermedate stations no matter how many entrances there may be or how difficult it is to install them. Economics will always outweigh the customer service angle. It can be argued that the BR open station policy encourgaed the growth of fare dodging and made it acceptable to ride for free. Therefore the TOC's have to battle a culture established during the BR period and the most visible way of showing that the railways aren't free is to close off stations with ticket barriers. Right of wrong they are here to stay
 

jon0844

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London has people using dodgy tickets, travelling within the wrong zones, or doubling up but I am not sure I've ever heard any suggestion that the Underground should get rid of gatelines. There are still some gaps in the system, like Finsbury Park, and I have no doubt that this gets abused regularly. It must do, given how many people RPIs catch when they do a random block.

Gatelines should be everywhere. If there are gaps, the whole security falls down or is ripe for abuse.
 

northwichcat

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I haven't read all the posts so apologies if I just repeat what someone else has said

a) Are they the best way to control fare evasion?

I'd personally say no. A machine can only do what's it been programmed to do and doesn't know whether, for instance, a Huddersfield to Bradford ticket at Leeds means someone has got the wrong ticket or if they are spilting the ticket.

I'm also against them because many ticket offices are understaffed and TOCs should look at increasing staffing levels at those stations or installing ticket machines so that more people have tickets in the first place, rather than spending all the money on barriers. Random manned ticket checks also encourage people to buy tickets as they never know if one is going to take place or not.

b) Where else are they planned?

Northern had them planned for Bolton. Northern were also looking in to Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly and TPE were looking in to Huddersfield.

c) Why's everyone in York and Sheffield so dead set against them?

York is down to Grand Central's policy of you can always buy on the train but with ticket barriers that doesn't apply to people boarding at York.

Sheffield is down to tram users (and non-tram users) not being able to go through the station and having to go a long way around.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Gatelines should be everywhere. If there are gaps, the whole security falls down or is ripe for abuse.

So it would be worth the cost to install them at stations with one service per week?
 

swt_passenger

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York is down to Grand Central's policy of you can always buy on the train but with ticket barriers that doesn't apply to people boarding at York.

That is just scaremongering. WSMR operate at fully barriered Marylebone and still allow ticket purchase onboard, as could GC at York.

An access ban would be down to gateline staff being obstructive, and wouldn't last five minutes...
 

jon0844

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So it would be worth the cost to install them at stations with one service per week?

Okay, a station like that could simply have a manual barrier in place for the times a train goes.

I think it's fair to say that if a station was to have staff checking ALL tickets at all times, you wouldn' t need a gateline. But you'd need a lot of staff.

And for stations with hardly any use, it all comes down to cost, which is why it is what it is. I am not saying we could afford to do it, but just that for it to work effectively we would have to do it - or have staff in place of gates.
 

northwichcat

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I think it's fair to say that if a station was to have staff checking ALL tickets at all times, you wouldn' t need a gateline. But you'd need a lot of staff.

I don't know how many stations aren't manned at all or that are only manned until a certain time but I think it's all stations except the very largest, with some exceptions e.g. Merseyrail. So your plan to have ticket barriers at all station from first to last trains would require a huge increase in the number of staff employed, otherwise passengers wouldn't be able to buy a ticket to get through the barrier and some people will need to be let through manually due to the type of tickets they have.
 

Drsatan

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So your plan to have ticket barriers at all station from first to last trains would require a huge increase in the number of staff employed, otherwise passengers wouldn't be able to buy a ticket to get through the barrier and some people will need to be let through manually due to the type of tickets they have.

Yesterday during the Zone 1/2 challenge my Travelcard (printed at Romsey station ticket office) wasn't accepted by any of the ticket barriers, including the Waterloo barriers, even though it wasn't damaged. So at all stations with barriers I had to ask the person manning the barriers to let me through.

At a couple of LUL stations the barriers were in operation even though they weren't manned, so the wide aisle gate was left open to allow passengers through. I don't understand why ALL the barriers couldn't have been left open as is the case on NR stations.

Indeed, if the barriers were shut, your ticket wasn't accepted by the barriers, there was no-one present to let you throw and you could not physically jump over the barriers couldn't you sue LUL for false imprisonment?
 

jon0844

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They can't leave the gates closed when unattended. If they do, they're in big trouble (although there is a plunger for emergencies that would open them if you suddenly had to get out).

Overground, where I'm guessing there's a different safety case, some stations now have remote gatelines that are monitored remotely by CCTV and someone can open/close gates from another location (most likely the main gateline).
 

LE Greys

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London has people using dodgy tickets, travelling within the wrong zones, or doubling up but I am not sure I've ever heard any suggestion that the Underground should get rid of gatelines. There are still some gaps in the system, like Finsbury Park, and I have no doubt that this gets abused regularly. It must do, given how many people RPIs catch when they do a random block.

There used to be a no-barrier route from Finsbury Park to Waterloo (Old Street-Bank-W&C). Not sure if it is still there (I travelled it a lot, but always with a ticket). However, there is another problem, barriers don't stamp tickets (which they do in France), so it's possible to frog them if they remain ungripped, are not collected, or you only do part of a journey. However, the ones at King's Cross used to have a nasty habit of swallowing part-used tickets when they first went in, a nightmare if you're going through to somewhere and don't have the out half any more.
 

me123

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None of it is.

It is a very dark station, particularly on the covered part of the platforms. But it's never underground at any point. See the picture here; the platforms go right up to the tunnel mouths but don't actually go into the tunnels themselves.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There used to be a no-barrier route from Finsbury Park to Waterloo (Old Street-Bank-W&C). Not sure if it is still there (I travelled it a lot, but always with a ticket). However, there is another problem, barriers don't stamp tickets (which they do in France), so it's possible to frog them if they remain ungripped, are not collected, or you only do part of a journey. However, the ones at King's Cross used to have a nasty habit of swallowing part-used tickets when they first went in, a nightmare if you're going through to somewhere and don't have the out half any more.

I think stamping the tickets would be a good idea, rather than just eating them up. They could be stamped with the station code (eg, Edinburgh to Maryhill tickets would be stamped with GLQ if you change at Queen Street) or, at the terminus station, stamp the word USED across them. That way, you can keep your tickets for expense purposes if need be.
 

northwichcat

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I think stamping the tickets would be a good idea, rather than just eating them up. They could be stamped with the station code (eg, Edinburgh to Maryhill tickets would be stamped with GLQ if you change at Queen Street) or, at the terminus station, stamp the word USED across them. That way, you can keep your tickets for expense purposes if need be.

Also be useful if you spilt your ticket as it will show that you have geniunely spilt your ticket rather than trying to use an unmarked one again.
 

90019

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It is a very dark station, particularly on the covered part of the platforms. But it's never underground at any point. See the picture here; the platforms go right up to the tunnel mouths but don't actually go into the tunnels themselves.

They stop a couple of metres short of the tunnels AFAIK. (I should really know, having been through twice today).
It always seems a little strange how dark it is because it's open.
 

Solent&Wessex

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FRom my experience of working on trains through the recently barriered Manchester Oxford Road and Leeds, the barriers are an inconvenience to the honest passenger and a slight delay to the fare dodger. I have worked trains into Man Ox Road a number of times with people I have known not to have tickets (either because they just refused to pay or because my machine was broken) and they just walked straight out of the barriers without a problem. The newer gates are so slow to close that it is easy to tailgate someone, or alternatively just go and grunt at the bored looking operative at the end and they will let you out.

Leeds is a joke. Lots of passengers have "MetroCards" issued at Bus Stations etc, or DayRovers from Bus Stations, Post Offices etc. These do not work the gates. Stand for 15 mins in an evening and you watch scores of people tailgating or just coming through without making any effort to put a ticket through a gate or show it to anybody.

The gates at Man Ox Road are generally left open in evenings and weekends - which is just the time when you really need them!!

Having said all that, I am in favour of them generally, but not everywhere. The passenger type at some stations is ideally suited to gates (lots of commuters and short distance travellers. Busy trains with staff having diffculty getting through etc) e.g. Leeds. The passenger type at others, eg York, is not. The problem is they are not operated correctly and don't, in many cases, achieve what they really should be doing - which is stopping fare dodgers.
 
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