Ticket gates, station pubs and cafes

[geoffk]

Apols if this has come up before.

The spread of ticket gates has thrown up a potential problem at several stations near me - namely the existence of a station pub or cafe with access both from the platform and the street. Examples are Huddersfield, Sheffield and Dewsbury (pubs) and Hebden Bridge (cafe). Of these, Huddersfield has had ticket gates for around three years, Dewsbury is about to have gates installed, while plans for Sheffield were shelved. I believe Reading is another example and there will be others around the country.

Currently anyone without a ticket could just walk through the pub or cafe. If the installation of gates means that the doors on the platform side are locked, pubs will lose custom from passengers changing trains and wanting to pop in for a pint, as they will have to exit via the gates, effectively making a "break of journey" which not all tickets allow. Alternatively the pub tenants might have to split the pub in two, with separate bars, to prevent through access, and who would pay for the necessary alterations and extra staff? Of course, British Rail introduced "open stations" years ago partly to get rid of this kind of duplication. At some stations, level access might be provided at one entrance but not the other so a disabled customer could be disadvantaged.

I'm sure we all want to discourage fare dodging but don't want a system which leads to pubs cafes losing income and maybe closing, or which creates inconvenience for their customers, who might just decide to drink elsewhere or not use the train. I contacted the Campaign for Real Ale about this some time ago but had a bland reply, that CAMRA does not have a specific position and so has not been in touch with train companies. What is the legal position of pub/cafe tenants? If they are tenants of Network Rail, which I assume they are, can they refuse to lock the platform entrance?

 

[takno]

Going through the gates to get to facilities on the other side isn't breaking the journey. It's a bit annoying, especially in places like Exeter where to my mind the Starbucks platform doors should be open rather than the outside ones, but I doubt it really affects behaviour that much

 

[yorkie]

... as they will have to exit via the gates, effectively making a "break of journey" which not all tickets allow.....

Visiting a pub such as the one at Huddersfield does not constitute a break of journey. Staff should allow you through, if the direct door is locked.

Alternatively the pub tenants might have to split the pub in two, with separate bars, to prevent through access, and who would pay for the necessary alterations and extra staff?

I can't see that happening.

Of course, British Rail introduced "open stations" years ago partly to get rid of this kind of duplication. At some stations, level access might be provided at one entrance but not the other so a disabled customer could be disadvantaged.

Open stations are good, it is a shame about Huddersfield (though the door is nearly always open in my experience, so no inconvenience most times) but don't think the DafT will ever succeed in their quest to inconvenience customers at York or Sheffield, in both cases we had a sweet victories; both were humiliating defeat for the DfT and their proxies

I'm sure we all want to discourage fare dodging but don't want a system which leads to pubs cafes losing income and maybe closing, or which creates inconvenience for their customers, who might just decide to drink elsewhere or not use the train.

I don't think customer convenience is high on the DafT's priority list.

 

[cuccir]

Alternatively the pub tenants might have to split the pub in two, with separate bars, to prevent through access, and who would pay for the necessary alterations and extra staff

I don't suppose this is likely in the cases you quote as they're older buildings that are less easily changed, but in more modern buildings this happens - I think there's a cafe/bar at Darlington station that has been split down the middle so staff can serve customers either side of the barriers.

 

[sheff1]

At Sheffield Tap the platform-side doors are locked on Friday & Saturday evenings, at least. Depending who you ask this is due to restrictions imposed by BTP, EMT (station operator) or Sheffield City Council (licensing authority).

 

[Elecman]

One would hope they aren’t marked as Fire Escape doors then

 

[LewFinnis]

A similar situation has existed at Dover Priory for a long time, with the cafe doors onto Platform 1 permanently locked since barriers were installed.

 

[yorkie]

One would hope they aren’t marked as Fire Escape doors then

It is possible for doors to be kept shut but to be able to open outwards in an emergency; this may be the case here.

(By the way for anyone wondering, they are shut on Fri/Sat nights for other self-explanatory not ticketing-related reasons )

 

[Mag_seven]

I remember when there no barriers at the old Reading - you could have a pint in "The Three Guineas" and walk straight out of there onto a westbound HST from the then Platform 4. Happy days!

 

[xotGD]

I don't suppose this is likely in the cases you quote as they're older buildings that are less easily changed, but in more modern buildings this happens - I think there's a cafe/bar at Darlington station that has been split down the middle so staff can serve customers either side of the barriers.

Yes, that's the set up at Darlo in the Pumpkin.

At Leeds the Upper Crust is 'landside' but has a serving counter on the platform side for takeaway service.

 

[Kite159]

Is it one of the cafes on Darlington station which is split with seating for both passengers who have past the barriers and some seating for people who haven't been through the barriers?

 

[Iskra]

Yes, that's the set up at Darlo in the Pumpkin.

At Leeds the Upper Crust is 'landside' but has a serving counter on the platform side for takeaway service.

Costa at Wakefield Westgate and Newcastle stations both have a wall down the middle of the customer flooring, but not behind the bar so the staff can serve at either side of the barriers. Quite funny at Westgate Costa when customers think the glass divide is a mirror and are confused at the lack of a reflection. More boring at Newcastle as it's just a solid wall partition.

Also, while the barriers can be bypassed at Huddersfield through the pub, it's very obvious when someone does it and is definitely frowned-upon.

The West Riding Refreshment Rooms at Dewsbury would be relatively easy to partition (although I hope it doesn't happen).

 

[ijmad]

At Denmark Hill, the coffee shop is arranged so it has two counters, one facing the outside and one facing the ticketed area, but with the same staff and machines. The counters are the whole width of the shop so you can't get around them unless you're a staff member. This arrangement came in to being when the new ticket hall was created in 2013, which included barriers. The coffee shop is actually in the space that was previously the entrance/exit area, which had no barriers. So the 'awkward' solution won here.

 

[heedfan]

This was the case at Harrogate until fairly recently - the pub in question is the Harrogate Tap and had a door leading directly to the platform as well as a main entrance leading to the street. The platform door has sadly been turned into a fire escape now (I think it’s alarmed) with no regular access. I used to enjoy finishing a pint as soon as the York train pulled in and jumping straight on, but now it’s a case of outside onto the steet and in through the main entrance of the station. Certainly takes some of the romanticism out of it, but it was definitely exploited by those sneaking onto the train and off at Starbeck so probably a good thing in the end.

 

[PeterC]

I don't suppose this is likely in the cases you quote as they're older buildings that are less easily changed, but in more modern buildings this happens - I think there's a cafe/bar at Darlington station that has been split down the middle so staff can serve customers either side of the barriers.

I remember the bar at Kew Gardens station being like that in the 70s

 

[Old Yard Dog]

A few years ago, I had a great deal of difficulty getting off Huddersfield station to visit the Kings Head and had to argue for 15 minutes with the gate lady. I held a Liverpool - Penistone CDR which, at the time, was cheaper than the Liverpool - Huddersfield CDR fare so I guess they were being a little precious as people were taking advantage of this anomaly. But CDRs do allow breaks of journey in both directions. I also needed to buy a Penistone - Chapeltown CDR from the ticket office to complete my journey (to visit the Commercial, Wentworth's brewery tap, before catching the bus to Stocksbridge Park Steels - I think Jamie Vardy may have been playing for them at the time). I ended up filing a complaint.

 

[yorkie]

A few years ago, I had a great deal of difficulty getting off Huddersfield station to visit the Kings Head and had to argue for 15 minutes with the gate lady. I held a Liverpool - Penistone CDR which, at the time, was cheaper than the Liverpool - Huddersfield CDR fare so I guess they were being a little precious as people were taking advantage of this anomaly.

Same price now (probably by increasing the cheaper fare; that's what TPE do if they discover that their ludicrously high fares have increased to such a level that they are undercut by fares that have not risen as much... unless the cheaper fare cannot be changed by them!) but did the gateline assistant really do a price comparison?

In my experience I've had gateline assistants who have attempted to bar break of journey based not on ticket price but on a mistaken believe that most tickets do not allow break of journey, and a further mistaken believe that using station facilities constitutes a break of journey.

I find that many gateline assistants are more often than not found to be inadequately trained and extremely unknowledgeable. Gatelines are not too bad if the gates themselves are very accepting of tickets (e.g. Birmingham New Street) and the staff are very relaxed about allowing anything that looks like it may be valid (e.g. Leeds main entrance). But when the gates reject valid tickets and the staff invent rules that do not exist, the company is risking its reputation if people representing the company are attempting to deny us our contractual rights.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I remember the bar at Kew Gardens station being like that in the 70s

New St Starbucks is like that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A few years ago, I had a great deal of difficulty getting off Huddersfield station to visit the Kings Head and had to argue for 15 minutes with the gate lady. I held a Liverpool - Penistone CDR which, at the time, was cheaper than the Liverpool - Huddersfield CDR fare so I guess they were being a little precious as people were taking advantage of this anomaly. But CDRs do allow breaks of journey in both directions. I also needed to buy a Penistone - Chapeltown CDR from the ticket office to complete my journey (to visit the Commercial, Wentworth's brewery tap, before catching the bus to Stocksbridge Park Steels - I think Jamie Vardy may have been playing for them at the time). I ended up filing a complaint.

I don't recall ever having been refused BoJ at a barrier even when travelling on a ticket that didn't technically allow it.

 

[Crossover]

Talking of Dewsbury, I was observing the start of the "vandalism" of the station the other day whilst there - I notice that on the Huddersfield platform, the barriers will be located inside and will block off the little shop that is there. There are signs saying that you will be able to ask staff to let you through to access the shop as usual. Whilst I don't know how many people use the shop (particularly those who use it before going to the Leeds platform as they will be the most inconvenienced by it) but I can see it potentially either causing the barrier staff a nightmare, if lots of people wish to go through (the area where the barriers are to be isn't very wide so I can foresee maybe only having a couple of gates anyway) or the shop will lose a proportion of their business. Maybe a combination of both

 

[geoffk]

Weston-super-Mare is another example I discovered last year. The bar called "Off the Rails" has a long room divided into two - one end is more cafe and the other is more distinctly pub. Entry is both from the platform and the street but there is a locked gate between the two sections although staff can serve at either end. I was told that during the day you can enter the cafe from the platform and order a beer but to sit in the pub area you have to go out and round. This suggests that the ticket gates are left open in the evening so the internal gate is left open as well.

 

[PeterC]

At Denmark Hill, the coffee shop is arranged so it has two counters, one facing the outside and one facing the ticketed area, but with the same staff and machines. The counters are the whole width of the shop so you can't get around them unless you're a staff member. This arrangement came in to being when the new ticket hall was created in 2013, which included barriers. The coffee shop is actually in the space that was previously the entrance/exit area, which had no barriers. So the 'awkward' solution won here.

Kew Gardens used to be like that in British Rail days.

 

[John Webb]

Whatever happened to platform tickets...….?

 

[TheSel]

'BOD' at Stoke on Trent - run by Titanic Brewery - is the former First Class Waiting Room, on Platform 1. Another 'divided' example - access both from the platform and the street, but with a 'gate' between the two than means you can't pass through from one side to the other. This gate, however, is open when the station's ticket barriers are similarly open.

 

[Parallel]

The Dashi at Taunton was divided in two, with access from the platform and street but with no walk through.

Similar at Chester with the Café Express on Platform 3 - there is also an entrance from the station concourse but again with no walk through.

There are ticket barriers at both stations.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember when there no barriers at the old Reading - you could have a pint in "The Three Guineas" and walk straight out of there onto a westbound HST from the then Platform 4. Happy days!

Yes, I had a short stint in Reading in the early noughties and often used to nip in for a pint on the way home from work.