Ticket Fraud

[Xarek]

Last night I was questioned under caution after having an invalid ticket arriving at the station. After the interview I was told I would be receiving a letter from the train company. The details are as follows:

I purchased a group ticket from Epsom to Waterloo for me and two colleagues. We travelled there and back again as a group. They disembarked at Epsom and I carried on to Leatherhead.

Usually all our travel is done from Leatherhead, and I completely forgot we purchased the ticket when we were in Epsom. This is also the first group ticket I have purchased and I am now aware that you must travel in a group at all times.

Under questioning I stated that I would not have purchased a ticket had they not been there, as I was not aware my ticket was invalid until I arrived at the station.

I'm not sure what to expect from this point forward - after doing some research I now realise this could be a very grave situation indeed, potentially resulting in a criminal conviction.

Also, I am not going to be at home from tomorrow until 3rd January. Does anyone know how long it usually takes for a letter to be sent, as I'm under the impression any response must be sent within 14 days, which I would be unable to do.

 

[455driver]

It can take them a while to send the letter out.

 

[island]

Did you have a ticket to Epsom but override? I don't know if the group bit is relevant here.

 

[Squaddie]

I purchased a group ticket from Epsom to Waterloo for me and two colleagues. We travelled there and back again as a group. They disembarked at Epsom and I carried on to Leatherhead.

Usually all our travel is done from Leatherhead, and I completely forgot we purchased the ticket when we were in Epsom. This is also the first group ticket I have purchased and I am now aware that you must travel in a group at all times.

Perhaps I've misunderstood, but if you bought a ticket from Epsom to Waterloo and, on the return journey, stayed on the train beyond Epsom to Leatherhead, then you were travelling without a ticket for the last part of your journey. The tale of the group ticket is irrelevant.

 

[Ferret]

Perhaps I've misunderstood, but if you bought a ticket from Epsom to Waterloo and, on the return journey, stayed on the train beyond Epsom to Leatherhead, then you were travelling without a ticket for the last part of your journey. The tale of the group ticket is irrelevant.

That's my understanding too. Perhaps more pertinently, the OP admitted under caution that he wouldn't have paid the correct fare if he had not been challenged, thereby demonstrating intent to avoid the fare. That could quite easily result in a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution which as I'm sure the OP now knows, carries a criminal record if convicted.

 

[Xarek]

Perhaps more pertinently, the OP admitted under caution that he wouldn't have paid the correct fare if he had not been challenged, thereby demonstrating intent to avoid the fare. That could quite easily result in a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution which as I'm sure the OP now knows, carries a criminal record if convicted.

Yes I over-rode from Epsom to LHD.

The reason I stated I wouldn't have paid the fare was because I was unaware that my ticket was invalid. If the gate was open and I didn't have to use my ticket, I wouldn't have realised my ticket was invalid. The reason I stated that was to prove that there was no wilful intent to avoid the fare.

 

[island]

I'm having trouble understanding how you can think a ticket that says From London Terminals to Epsom is valid to Leatherhead, two stops after Epsom.

 

[Xarek]

I'm having trouble understanding how you can think a ticket that says From London Terminals to Epsom is valid to Leatherhead, two stops after Epsom.

I simply forgot we were in Epsom when I bought the tickets earlier that day, as I usually would have bought them from LHD.

 

[185]

I'm having trouble understanding how you can think a ticket that says From London Terminals to Epsom is valid to Leatherhead, two stops after Epsom.

Agree. Ordinary Day Return tickets are around 15-20% more expensive from Leatherhead than from Epsom, so any thoughts about the fare being in the same group/band of stations are wrong.

 

[Xarek]

Agree. Ordinary Day Return tickets are around 15-20% more expensive from Leatherhead than from Epsom, so any thoughts about the fare being in the same group/band of stations are wrong.

I purchased the tickets in Epsom, and we travelled from Epsom to Waterloo. So it can definitely be confirmed I didn't travel from LHD to Waterloo.

 

[wintonian]

The reason I stated I wouldn't have paid the fare was because I was unaware that my ticket was invalid. If the gate was open and I didn't have to use my ticket, I wouldn't have realised my ticket was invalid. The reason I stated that was to prove that there was no wilful intent to avoid the fare.

Unfortunately you may have done the opposite of what you intended here.

An answer in the affirmative here I believe is normally taken as evidence of intent by the Train Operating Company.

 

[Xarek]

Unfortunately you may have done the opposite of what you intended here.

An answer in the affirmative here I believe is normally taken as evidence of intent by the Train Operating Company.

At least that's something I know now to clear up if/when they ask me for my version of events. My statement as was written I think was "No, as I would not have realised my ticket was invalid".

 

[Stigy]

That's my understanding too. Perhaps more pertinently, the OP admitted under caution that he wouldn't have paid the correct fare if he had not been challenged, thereby demonstrating intent to avoid the fare. That could quite easily result in a Regulation of Railways Act prosecution which as I'm sure the OP now knows, carries a criminal record if convicted.

Normally yes, but in this case not so really, as the only reason the OP says he would not have paid for the rest of the journey is because he didn't realise the ticket wasn't valid, therefore, I'd say a Byelaw would be more suitable. Having said that, it all depends on how the staff member's report is written, together with what else was said under caution as to what the outcome would be. Also, how believable this scenario is? Were further questions asked? For example, did he buy the ticket himself? if so, surely he knew it wasn't valid to Leatherhead prior to being stopped?

 

[Ferret]

At least that's something I know now to clear up if/when they ask me for my version of events. My statement as was written I think was "No, as I would not have realised my ticket was invalid".

I wouldn't imagine that would go down well - travelling alone on a group ticket and being over-distance, and you didn't realise you weren't valid? With all due respect, I can't see a Magistrate accepting that a reasonable person would possibly believe that they were holding a valid ticket.

I would imagine at some point in the new year, you'll be receiving a letter from the train company - I would suggest you need to offer to settle this matter before it reaches Court to try and avoid a criminal record here. Of course, this may cost you a bit of a sum of money, but a conviction will probably cost you much more.

 

[Xarek]

I wouldn't imagine that would go down well - travelling alone on a group ticket and being over-distance, and you didn't realise you weren't valid? With all due respect, I can't see a Magistrate accepting that a reasonable person would possibly believe that they were holding a valid ticket.

I would imagine at some point in the new year, you'll be receiving a letter from the train company - I would suggest you need to offer to settle this matter before it reaches Court to try and avoid a criminal record here. Of course, this may cost you a bit of a sum of money, but a conviction will probably cost you much more.

I agree it probably won't be seen well. It's just a very unfortunate oversight on my part.

I will certainly be trying to settle out of court. As it's my first offence I'm hoping they will be happy to do that.

 

[gingerheid]

Unfortunately you may have done the opposite of what you intended here.

An answer in the affirmative here I believe is normally taken as evidence of intent by the Train Operating Company.

I'm sure they'd take it as evidence of intent, but I'd take it as evidence of being mixed up and I'm sure a lawyer would help you argue that.

You don't want it to go there though when it's a bit iffy; something that has to be kept out of Court if possible.

 

[talltim]

Many of you seem to be missing the OPs point. He didn't think the Epsom-Waterloo group ticket was valid to Leatherhead. He didnt think about tickets at all as he was used to having a valid ticket to Leatherhead as that is where he normally travelled/bought them from. It wasn't until he was asked for his ticket that he even realised it wasnt valid, and if he hadn't been asked he probably wouldn't have realised until when he emptied his pockets.
That doesn't alter the fact that it probably wasn't the best thing to say to the Inspector!

 

[Xarek]

Many of you seem to be missing the OPs point. He didn't think the Epsom-Waterloo group ticket was valid to Leatherhead. He didnt think about tickets at all as he was used to having a valid ticket to Leatherhead as that is where he normally travelled/bought them from. It wasn't until he was asked for his ticket that he even realised it wasnt valid, and if he hadn't been asked he probably wouldn't have realised intimate when he emptied his pockets.
That doesn't alter the fact that it probably wasn't the best thing to say to the Inspector!

That is correct. I actually put the ticket through the gate and it didn't open, at which point the officer started to question me straight away.

I'm annoyed about giving that answer now if they believe it denotes intent, but the last thing I wanted to do was lie!

There is the group ticket issue as well, which I have no excuse for except ignorance.

 

[Ferret]

Talltim, I'm trying to look at this from the railway company's perspective, and how they'll present it to the Magistrates if it goes that far.

My personal view is that you don't have to be a railway ticketing tragic to realise that travelling alone while holding a group ticket probably isn't going to be legit. Forgetting what ticket you held isn't a reasonable defence either - let's face it, it's not a railway company's role to remind you what ticket you have purchased!

That's the crux of the matter, and in fairness, I think the OP probably realises now what the situation is. There's little else to be said, other than to assume this is a first offence, and that there probably is a realistic prospect of an out of Court settlement therefore. I don't think it's cut and dried that the TOC here will go for the more serious offence either - Byelaw 18 is an equally likely offence to be prosecuted in these circumstances.

An apologetic letter and a reasonable offer to cover the fare and admin costs should suffice, with an offer in three figures.

I'm annoyed about giving that answer now if they believe it denotes intent, but the last thing I wanted to do was lie!

Quite correct - telling porkies will only dig the hole deeper and make a section 5 RoR Act prosecution a near-certainty, with all the relevant consequences. It's often best to fess up in that situation rather than reach for the shovel!

 

[b0b]

My personal view is that you don't have to be a railway ticketing tragic to realise that travelling alone while holding a group ticket probably isn't going to be legit

less clear would be if the group ticket had been to LHD. I think more people would be surprised to find it contrary to the rules that the ticket is invalid between Epsom and Leatherhead because one of the group left the train there. But not relevant in this case obviously.

 

[455driver]

How did you get from Leatherhead to Epsom?

That could be relevant to both sides depending on the answer.

 

[Xarek]

How did you get from Leatherhead to Epsom?

That could be relevant to both sides depending on the answer.

We had driven up earlier in the day. It doesn't seem like there will be any value to me fighting it anyway, I'll just have to admit wrongdoing and hope for a settlement out of court.

 

[455driver]

Fair enough.

As it appears to be an honest mistake they should hopefully offer to settle, no guarantees though.

 

[Ferret]

Fair enough.

As it appears to be an honest mistake they should hopefully offer to settle, no guarantees though.

On the balance of probabilities, and bearing in mind I've heard of somebody committing Blue Peter season ticket fraud (about the worst kind of ticket irregularity I'd say!!!) manage to settle out of Court, I'd expect it to be possible to settle this quite easily.

 

[Xarek]

On the balance of probabilities, and bearing in mind I've heard of somebody committing Blue Peter season ticket fraud (about the worst kind of ticket irregularity I'd say!!!) manage to settle out of Court, I'd expect it to be possible to settle this quite easily.

I certainly hope so. I shall simply state the facts about what happened, apologise for gross oversight and stupidity on my part, and offer to pay any administration costs and remuneration they require.

I shall post here again when I receive the letter.

Thanks to everyone for their input and help, even if some of it is difficult for me to digest. I'm going to attempt to have a nice Christmas and put this to the back of my mind for now. Merry Christmas all.

 

[34D]

Indeed, do post back here when you receive their letter, and people will help fine-tune your reply (based on what the letter actually says).

 

[cjp]

On the balance of probabilities, and bearing in mind I've heard of somebody committing Blue Peter season ticket fraud (about the worst kind of ticket irregularity I'd say!!!) manage to settle out of Court, I'd expect it to be possible to settle this quite easily.

What is a Blue Peter season ticket fraud?

 

[button_boxer]

What is a Blue Peter season ticket fraud?

I presume "here's one I made earlier"...

 

[wintonian]

I presume "here's one I made earlier"...

and normally written out with a felt tip pen on an old washing up liquid bottle wrapped in sticky back plastic.

or if you spend a bit longer crafting on you end up with something more like this