Ticket didn't fall out of the machine

[Hadders]

FWIW I have never, ever had a cash machine incorrectly issue to me.

It's happened to me twice but I've yet to have a ToD failure.

 

[causton]

It isn’t hard to add sensors to ensure the tickets drop, and to mark the booking as not collected if they don’t. FWIW I have never, ever had a cash machine incorrectly issue to me.

The problem is that the railway would rather inconvenience passengers than take the minute risk of duplicates being misused.

There is no need for any new sensors as the machines already do this and mark the ToD as "Print failed", or at least they should, S&B and Shere/Atos/Worldline ones do at least in my experience! Then it just needs to be collected from a booking office. Simple. Or at least it should be... Although the railway will always find some way to make that process unnecessarily complicated!

FWIW I have never, ever had a cash machine incorrectly issue to me.

The problem is that the railway would rather inconvenience passengers than take the minute risk of duplicates being misused.

You have not tried to use the non-Barclays one at Watford Junction then it frequently crashes, swallowing people's cards, and if the amount you request is not available in the machine it suggests you type in another amount, which you do, and it then doesn't seem to work...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why does it have to be collected from a booking office (which is increasingly inconvenient and stressful to the passenger)? Why not just another TVM?

I guess the booking office can ask for anything that did print - but that’s back to my point above - the railway should not make it inconvenient for passengers because of their failings, so what if there is the very occasional duplicate ticket out there? If it’s more than occasional, it needs properly fixing.

 

[najaB]

Why does it have to be collected from a booking office (which is increasingly inconvenient and stressful to the passenger)? Why not just another TVM?

I think that, as much as anything, it's to ensure that the passenger receives all the correct coupons and doesn't end up with duplicates of some and be missing others.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Then it just needs to be collected from a booking office. Simple.

Which is simple if the station with a TVM has a ticket office. And said ticket office is open.

If not, it's a long and frustrating mess to fix. A call to web telesales is always a fun way to spend an afternoon (hi VTEC, looking at you) and by that time your booked train has long since departed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is simple if the station with a TVM has a ticket office. And said ticket office is open.

If not, it's a long and frustrating mess to fix. A call to web telesales is always a fun way to spend an afternoon (hi VTEC, looking at you) and by that time your booked train has long since departed.

Precisely. The problem would be near solved almost everywhere by simply allowing them to try again, and taking the TVM out of service if it happens at the same one twice.

 

[bb21]

Quite simply, ToD is outdated technology.

With so much modern technology available and having been available for yonks, it is quite astonishing that the vast majority of passengers still rely on a piece of paper to travel despite priding ourselves as being at the forefront of innovation and technology.

What we have are soundbites and "visions" bandied about by the government, but no real progress. Quite depressing really.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Quite simply, ToD is outdated technology.

With so much modern technology available and having been available for yonks, it is quite astonishing that the vast majority of passengers still rely on a piece of paper to travel despite priding ourselves as being at the forefront of innovation and technology.

What we have are soundbites and "visions" bandied about by the government, but no real progress. Quite depressing really.

One of the only noticeable changes so far with West Midlands Railway taking over the London Midland franchise, is that the London Midland OnTrack app (which I rather liked) was instantly replaced with a new WMR app, which I'm less keen on overall, but which does have mobile ticketing available from day one! I guess Abellio were able to do this straight away because they already had the app for their other franchises. It was certainly a very fast way to implement one of their franchise requirements. And my first experience of using it was positive.

(Imagine how much easier it would be to implement improvements such as mobile ticketing if the mobile apps were centralised or standardised... *dreams*)

 

[Puffing Devil]

With so much modern technology available and having been available for yonks, it is quite astonishing that the vast majority of passengers still rely on a piece of paper to travel despite priding ourselves as being at the forefront of innovation and technology.

Because paper tickets don't "fail" and can all be read with the mark one eyeball.

 

[bb21]

Because paper tickets don't "fail" and can all be read with the mark one eyeball.

They certainly can "fail" in various ways.

 

[Puffing Devil]

They certainly can "fail" in various ways.

Indeed they can, though I would be interested to know of additional failures that do not apply to eTickets.

Paper tickets can be lost or stolen, much like phones or smart cards.

They don't suffer battery failure, download failure, app failure or reader failure.

 

[bb21]

Indeed they can, though I would be interested to know of additional failures that do not apply to eTickets.

Paper tickets can be lost or stolen, much like phones or smart cards.

They don't suffer battery failure, download failure, app failure or reader failure.

Different people will have differing levels of exposure so it is difficult to draw a direct comparison. Some will find it easier to misplace a paper ticket, others a phone. The bottom line is paper tickets are pretty easy to go walkies, which is not ideal for something which is often the sole proof of a contract worth a pretty handsome amount. I am sure most people on this forum have mislaid a ticket of two (or will likely do so) in their life time, a significant minority more than once. I am also willing to bet that the number who have mislaid a phone, for example, is much smaller. In the case of electronic travel documents, let's say, with a well-designed system, there should be a way to obtain an alternative copy of the travel document in the event of a lost or dead handset, and the other issues can be well-mitigated against through the provision of suitable facilities, eg. charge sockets onboard.

But going back to the fundamental point.

I am not suggesting that paper tickets should be entirely replaced by some other ticketing mode. It may well still have its purpose amongst a fairly niche part of the population (and I do mean a small minority). What should be happening with the advent of modern technology is that there should be a variety of well-integrated modes (competently designed, implemented, and managed) which together make the system much more secure, versatile, and convenient for everyone - customers, staff, company stakeholders, etc. The fact that very little progress has been made in all these years (with much of what came onto the market clumsy and poorly designed) speaks volumes about many aspects of the industry.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Quite simply, ToD is outdated technology.

With so much modern technology available and having been available for yonks, it is quite astonishing that the vast majority of passengers still rely on a piece of paper to travel despite priding ourselves as being at the forefront of innovation and technology.

I'd agree with that, definitely. The mistakes I've encountered with paper tickets (including East Coast once sending me someone else's Anytime return from Harrogate to London in with my pack of cheapo advances) couldn't really be replicated with electronic tickets.

That said, I do like paper. I like cash, because I'm not at the whim of an IT failure by my bank. I like paper tickets because I'm not at the whim of a hardware or software failure, either on my end or theirs.

 

[talldave]

With banks smart card/mobile app use is mainstream and you're not treated like a second class citizen if you encounter a problem. Rail smartcard/e-ticketing is quite the opposite, with the majority of staff knowing nothing, or worse still, the wrong thing, about it. In fact, travelling with paper tickets is often challenging enough that I've no desire to switch to a medum on which my ticket is effectively invisible.

 

[philthetube]

Different people will have differing levels of exposure so it is difficult to draw a direct comparison. Some will find it easier to misplace a paper ticket, others a phone. The bottom line is paper tickets are pretty easy to go walkies, which is not ideal for something which is often the sole proof of a contract worth a pretty handsome amount. I am sure most people on this forum have mislaid a ticket of two (or will likely do so) in their life time, a significant minority more than once. I am also willing to bet that the number who have mislaid a phone, for example, is much smaller. In the case of electronic travel documents, let's say, with a well-designed system, there should be a way to obtain an alternative copy of the travel document in the event of a lost or dead handset, and the other issues can be well-mitigated against through the provision of suitable facilities, eg. charge sockets onboard.

But going back to the fundamental point.

I am not suggesting that paper tickets should be entirely replaced by some other ticketing mode. It may well still have its purpose amongst a fairly niche part of the population (and I do mean a small minority). What should be happening with the advent of modern technology is that there should be a variety of well-integrated modes (competently designed, implemented, and managed) which together make the system much more secure, versatile, and convenient for everyone - customers, staff, company stakeholders, etc. The fact that very little progress has been made in all these years (with much of what came onto the market clumsy and poorly designed) speaks volumes about many aspects of the industry.

People don't like change, don't like things they don't trust or things they are not familiar with, you only need to look at all the complaints on here about every new app released by the Toc's to realise that. To use a system you are familiar with is easier than learning, and possibly making expensive mistakes on a new one.

I also get the feeling that people on this forum have a different perception of the general public's comfort levels with technology to reality, ask a northern guard what percentage of ticket sales are cash and it will be a large percentage. Similarly, in Watford, my Coop has just been refurbished and three card only self service tills have been installed with only one staffed checkout, often a queue for the checkout while the self service stand unused.

Forum users by their nature are reasonably tech savy, they are using phones, computers, tablets etc. many other, mainly but not exclusively elderly, and for various reasons will be very difficult to move from paper ticketing.

 

[bb21]

If we just bow to that attitude then nothing will ever progress.

People have always adapted, and always will.

 

[35B]

If we just bow to that attitude then nothing will ever progress.

People have always adapted, and always will.

And better when they are offered something to improve their life, rather than compulsion.

 

[al78]

Does rail e-ticketing work similarly to airline tickets, i.e. receive by e-mail then print at home?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does rail e-ticketing work similarly to airline tickets, i.e. receive by e-mail then print at home?

It differs in that in the airline's case the ticket is just a record in a database to which the printout is a reference, but the printed/mobile phone railway ticket has validity in itself.

There's the further distinction of a ticketless airline vs. an e-ticketed one. This is not these days obvious to the end user, but the difference is that a ticketless airline just has a PNR (Passenger Name Record) with an itinerary against it in the database, while an e-ticketed airline has an IATA format ticket in a separate database as well which can be transferred to another airline or converted to a printed paper IATA format ticket.

 

[bb21]

And better when they are offered something to improve their life, rather than compulsion.

True. I don't mean just forcing everyone to accept new modes regardless, but a well-designed ticketing system using modern technology offering a wide variety of ticketing modes should be able to offer something for virtually everyone.

 

[Dent]

People don't like change, don't like things they don't trust or things they are not familiar with, you only need to look at all the complaints on here about every new app released by the Toc's to realise that.

Has anyone actually said that they object to every new app released by a TOC on the grounds that they dislike change?

Are you sure it isn't actually the case that people raise valid concerns about ways in which these apps make the situation demonstrably worse, only for these concerns to be thoughtlessly dismissed as "fear of change" without anyone even listening to what the actual concern was?

 

[Bletchleyite]

True. I don't mean just forcing everyone to accept new modes regardless, but a well-designed ticketing system using modern technology offering a wide variety of ticketing modes should be able to offer something for virtually everyone.

Indeed. To me the core of that is a move to proper e-ticketing, where the actual ticket exists in a database and every different means of carrying it (orange card, mobile, home-printed A4, PDF on an iPad, tattoo on your wrist or whatever you care to do with it) is simply a reference to it.

 

[najaB]

Indeed. To me the core of that is a move to proper e-ticketing, where the actual ticket exists in a database and every different means of carrying it (orange card, mobile, home-printed A4, PDF on an iPad, tattoo on your wrist or whatever you care to do with it) is simply a reference to it.

As long as we have a turn-up-and-go railway and don't have universal data network coverage that will be problematic.

 

[rs101]

Because paper tickets don't "fail" and can all be read with the mark one eyeball.

Of course they do - I had to swap a one day Travelcard recently because it couldn't be read by any barriers.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Of course they do - I had to swap a one day Travelcard recently because it couldn't be read by any barriers.

And you were able to have the ticket replaced by a human who could read the printing on the ticket? Try that with a irrecoverable ticket on a phone or smartcard.

 

[rs101]

Indeed. To me the core of that is a move to proper e-ticketing, where the actual ticket exists in a database and every different means of carrying it (orange card, mobile, home-printed A4, PDF on an iPad, tattoo on your wrist or whatever you care to do with it) is simply a reference to it.

Exactly. It's somewhat daft that I can buy refreshments on a train using my mobile, but some think the idea of being able to have the ticket on that device is somehow impossible.

At the moment we have the somewhat daft situation where I can buy an Advance ticket for Greater Anglia from Colchester to London Liverpool Street as an m-Ticket, but can't buy an off-peak m-Ticket. However, I can use the same app to buy an off-peak m-Ticket from Southend to London Liverpool Street (https://www.greateranglia.co.uk/tickets-fares/daily-tickets/mobile-tickets ).

 

[rs101]

And you were able to have the ticket replaced by a human who could read the printing on the ticket? Try that with a irrecoverable ticket on a phone or smartcard.

Yes, I could get the failed ticket replaced, although you missed the point. You claimed a paper ticket could not "fail" - mine had.

if an m-Ticket is irrecoverable, that's entirely down to a poor implementation by the TOC, not a problem with the basic concept.
As an example of this, GA say if the phone is dead, lost or broken, that's it, tough, you need a new ticket. Compare that to SNCB - if you can't show the m-ticket for any reason then just supply proof of purchase, pay a small admin fee and you're okay ( http://www.belgianrail.be/en/customer-service/FAQ/mobile-tickets.aspx ).

The digital version of the Network Railcard recoverable, so it's possible, if they so desire, to provide this.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yes, I could get the failed ticket replaced, although you missed the point. You claimed a paper ticket could not "fail" - mine had.

if an m-Ticket is irrecoverable, that's entirely down to a poor implementation by the TOC, not a problem with the basic concept.
As an example of this, GA say if the phone is dead, lost or broken, that's it, tough, you need a new ticket. Compare that to SNCB - if you can't show the m-ticket for any reason then just supply proof of purchase, pay a small admin fee and you're okay ( http://www.belgianrail.be/en/customer-service/FAQ/mobile-tickets.aspx ).

The digital version of the Network Railcard recoverable, so it's possible, if they so desire, to provide this.

Happy to explore this and split a few hairs. A magstripe error is a failure. However, it's an easily recoverable failure. The GA failure you mention is a complete failure which is irrecoverable, and unacceptable.

To explore this a little:

Exactly. It's somewhat daft that I can buy refreshments on a train using my mobile, but some think the idea of being able to have the ticket on that device is somehow impossible.

I don't think it's impossible by any means. We now that e/m Tickets are available "Right here, right now" to quote Fatboy Slim. The issue is with resilience. I am far from a technophobe, with my early life spent cutting code for commercial systems where the emphasis is on not failing. Most programmers will tell you that writing the initial program takes 5-10% of the effort, the remaining time is spent making sure it can't go wrong and all errors are trapped.

I have bought and used eTickets on my phone, though it's not my preference. We know that phones can and do go wrong and when they do there is little chance of recovering your ticket.

Taking your example of buying refreshments - if your Android or Apple Pay fails (mine has!) I can dig into my wallet for a physical card or maybe some cash. I don't have that luxury with an eticket - unless I'm using the card to buy a replacement ticket.

Bletchleyite touched on the solution and we've discussed it in previous threads: there needs to be a single, central, database containing all current and future tickets with a standard mechanism for accessing the ticket details. Until we have that, we're reliant on piecemeal solutions that are not fault tolerant to the detriment of the passenger.

 

[Hadders]

Paper tickets fail when the print fades, i’ve personally had blank tickets dispensed from a TVM due to a print head failure (although the mag stripe was correctly encoded).

What’s needed is a national standard for smart cards/m tickets/e tickets that replicate the benefits of paper tickets, rather than individual operator schemes that are incompatible with each other, and launched in a haphazard manner.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A good start would be to replace NRS with an e-ticket database. They manage a single reservation database, why not a single ticket database too?

Then it wouldn't matter who or what connected to it, as any connection would just be a reference to it accessible from any such source.