Ticket checking at Nuneaton?

[sheff1]

the fact is that out of 100 people in a shop 99 will go to the till and pay maybe 1 will leave without doing so. Yet on a train the equation is probably more like 50/50 or worse.

I don't know which trains you travel on, but on my travels the % of people with tickets is far closer to 99 than 50.

Even where stations have no ticketing facilities the majority of people boarding seem to have their money ready or hold a ticket bought elsewhere.

 

[najaB]

Do you reckon there's a forum somewhere for staff, shoppers and enthusiasts of Asda, where every couple of days someone comes on, they've put a bottle of Scotch in their gusset, got to the till, panicked, forgot they wanted to buy scotch and instead tried to buy a bottle of mineral water only for the very rude and aggressive store detective to speak to them in such a horrible manner that they panic and give the name and address of someone that, despie being unable to rmember their own name and Address, they can remember this other person's? And then ask for forum help to get away with it?

Where's the Like button?

 

[First class]

Do you reckon there's a forum somewhere for staff, shoppers and enthusiasts of Asda, where every couple of days someone comes on, they've put a bottle of Scotch in their gusset, got to the till, panicked, forgot they wanted to buy scotch and instead tried to buy a bottle of mineral water only for the very rude and aggressive store detective to speak to them in such a horrible manner that they panic and give the name and address of someone that, despie being unable to rmember their own name and Address, they can remember this other person's? And then ask for forum help to get away with it?

Sadly, there are such forums- although mainly makeup and clothing thefts.

 

[wellwhatitis]

I don't know which trains you travel on, but on my travels the % of people with tickets is far closer to 99 than 50.

Even where stations have no ticketing facilities the majority of people boarding seem to have their money ready or hold a ticket bought elsewhere.

I'm in the West Midlands, and I'm betting that you're not.

 

[Skutter]

I don't know which trains you travel on, but on my travels the % of people with tickets is far closer to 99 than 50.

Even where stations have no ticketing facilities the majority of people boarding seem to have their money ready or hold a ticket bought elsewhere.

"Based on evidence ... ATOC estimates that between 3% and 5% of journeys made on the network every day are made without tickets." http://www.atoc.org/media-centre/at...n-the-railways-top-10-dodgy-excuses-revealed/ The numbers seem fairly stable looking at their other releases.

I don't know how evenly this is spread out though, and would expect that short, cheap journeys are the most evaded.

 

[plastictaffy]

There are proper barriers being installed at New Street later this year.

I'd be interested to see how long they are properly manned for though!!! They're putting them in at Coventry now as well, aren't they??
They will be an absolute goldmine there!!

 

[ivanhoe]

How does the Government become involved when it's private operators ?

Government selects the Operators. Some receive subsidy whilst others pay a premium. Come up with an algebraic formula which assumes the amount which goes uncollected. Deduct that amount from subsidy or increase premium payment. I believe there is a serious under-estimation of fares which are not collected. I just wished that TOCS took the situation seriously, but that means recognising a problem, then doing something about it.

 

[Robertj21a]

Government selects the Operators. Some receive subsidy whilst others pay a premium. Come up with an algebraic formula which assumes the amount which goes uncollected. Deduct that amount from subsidy or increase premium payment. I believe there is a serious under-estimation of fares which are not collected. I just wished that TOCS took the situation seriously, but that means recognising a problem, then doing something about it.

I suppose it depends on whether the 3% - 5% lost (quoted above) is sufficiently significant and whether it could be reduced by specific action, carefully targeted. The total amount in hard cash terms is certainly enough to cause concern but the costs of recovery may soon exceed the amounts recovered.

If, as quoted, the 3% - 5% has been fairly stable for some time then it sounds like it's become the acceptable ceiling.

 

[Greeby]

From my experience London Midland revenue protection is a joke full stop.

To be expected when the number of Revenue Protection positions is cut in half at a stroke.

 

[50010 Monarch]

To be expected when the number of Revenue Protection positions is cut in half at a stroke.

Which is a false ecomomy if ever there was one.

Unsurprisingly LM have produced again on my latest trip (Stourbridge to Worcester and back on Friday just gone). No ticket check in either direction.

 

[Tracky]

There are two issues here.

The first is revenue protection...

Guards, Train Managers, Conductors and Senior Conductors for Virgin and London Midland should carry out revenue duties. They should complement revenue collection by selling the full range of tickets for passengers who join at unmanned stations and exchange PERTIS tickets where necessary. I do believe they should avoid conflict where possible by using discretion.

The real revenue protection should be carried out by other staff and train crew collecting fares should not undermine the message of buying before boarding the TOC should be sending out.

The second issue for me is the role of the guard...

There is a definite threat to the guards role at London Midland. They need to show that they are on board the train by passing through and interacting with the travelling public in order to add weight to the arguments to keep their jobs secure.

I went out on a West Mids Day Ranger a couple of weeks ago and it wasn't checked once. The only staff to pass through a train were virgin staff who introduced us to a performance of a song by an up and coming artist in the voyager. Joy of joys...

 

[HLE]

There are two issues here.

The first is revenue protection...

Guards, Train Managers, Conductors and Senior Conductors for Virgin and London Midland should carry out revenue duties. They should complement revenue collection by selling the full range of tickets for passengers who join at unmanned stations and exchange PERTIS tickets where necessary. I do believe they should avoid conflict where possible by using discretion.

The real revenue protection should be carried out by other staff and train crew collecting fares should not undermine the message of buying before boarding the TOC should be sending out.

The second issue for me is the role of the guard...

There is a definite threat to the guards role at London Midland. They need to show that they are on board the train by passing through and interacting with the travelling public in order to add weight to the arguments to keep their jobs secure.

I went out on a West Mids Day Ranger a couple of weeks ago and it wasn't checked once. The only staff to pass through a train were virgin staff who introduced us to a performance of a song by an up and coming artist in the voyager. Joy of joys...

Hmm I'd have to disagree with that one a little. I use LM ('city' not express mind) every day and yes there are some guards who I have never seen do a ticket check yet in the years I've been using the service. However 2/3 usually do one and adding to that quite a few of them will chat with the regulars and do interact with the passengers.

The newer intake seem to be more focused on the ticket checking side of things though, which has caused issues believe it or not, however I fail to see how the guard can be blamed for members of the public not having tickets, it is up to the passenger to ensure they purchase a ticket. Personally I'd put RPI at the larger stations and fine the lot. Stations like Coventry have needed ticket barriers for years.

 

[Tracky]

Maybe guards are less active on a Saturday... I travelled on enough trains for it not to be bad luck alone...

 

[HLE]

Maybe guards are less active on a Saturday... I travelled on enough trains for it not to be bad luck alone...

Maybe....I'd certainly agree a decent % of LM guards don't do ticket rounds on the services I use, hence the 2/3 comment. Of that 2/3 it's usually the ones who have been in the grade for a few years too.

The more 'recent' guards do seem to be checking tickets a lot more, but don't forget on services that LM generally operate, inner surburban, frequent stopping etc., it can be difficult to do ticket checks and then the doors. I've seen a few guards get stuck halfway down a carriage and subsequently delay the train when stopped at a station.

 

[WL113]

Which is why it shouldn't be the job of the guard to sell tickets. Every station should have a staffed booking office. No ticket? - no getting on the train.

That will of course never happen....

 

[Hadders]

I'm offended by ticket less travel however there is a commercial decision to be made.

ATOC say that 3-5% of journeys are made without paying. These are more likely to be short distance journeys therefore the revenue loss is probably around 1-2%. The cost of collecting this revenue is likely to be relatively high and therefore the TOCS/DfT will make a commercial decision on whether it's productive to collect it.

I know we don't like retailing comparisons on this forum but retailers generally budget to have a stock shrinkage of around 1-2%. It's a huge sum of money but it would cost far more to collect it and have a huge negative impact on service in many cases.

 

[323235]

Maybe, but it is still completely the wrong attitude. And the fact is that out of 100 people in a shop 99 will go to the till and pay maybe 1 will leave without doing so. Yet on a train the equation is probably more like 50/50 or worse.

The question is why do people think their behaviour is correct in one situation where they fully accept it's wrong in another?

Maybe on the trains you travel on it is 50/50 but on the trains I go on it is usually no more than in the region of 25% generally. This is perhaps because people know the guards do come round 50-75% for Northern and 50-100% on TPE , whereas in London Midland it does always seem to be lower. 5 years ago on TPE I would have said 75-100% but checks do seem to have gone down a bit.

 

[island]

Which is why it shouldn't be the job of the guard to sell tickets. Every station should have a staffed booking office. No ticket? - no getting on the train.

That will of course never happen....

And the reasons why include Denton, Teesside Airport, Lympstone Commando, and Berney Arms.

 

[wellwhatitis]

Hmm I'd have to disagree with that one a little. I use LM ('city' not express mind) every day and yes there are some guards who I have never seen do a ticket check yet in the years I've been using the service. However 2/3 usually do one and adding to that quite a few of them will chat with the regulars and do interact with the passengers.

The newer intake seem to be more focused on the ticket checking side of things though, which has caused issues believe it or not, however I fail to see how the guard can be blamed for members of the public not having tickets, it is up to the passenger to ensure they purchase a ticket. Personally I'd put RPI at the larger stations and fine the lot. Stations like Coventry have needed ticket barriers for years.

It is hard work on these services and we are all different. There is a lot of hassle to be had out there on these trains and our shifts are long and intense, not like the Virgin TM's who barely get onto a platform. Many of the time served folks are simply either sick of the grief they get from the high percentage of professional dodgers we carry, or just knackered. Working these trains from the saloon is harder physical work, coupled with the fact that on most of our trains the local door in the saloon is slower to open and close than the cab door. This means that with the amount of stops we make, it's not long before you're creating a delay which on our lines has endless knock on consequences.

Personally I work most of my trains and take as much as I can, not least because we are on commission and I feel it is worth the effort. But then I only do my basic shifts, I don't do overtime. Many would rather come in for a rest day and get the extra cash that way, I prefer to earn it while I'm already here and keep my own time to myself.

I do get fed up with the attitude you get sometimes, 'lazy cab dwellers' etc etc. We can go up and down as many as 5 or 6 times a day and may choose to stay in the cab for one trip, yet that is the one the complainers cite when telling us all how lazy we are. Then when you do a full check you get the grunts and eye rolls from the very people who will complain the next day that their ticket is never checked.

I have learned that the job here is generally an unwinnable situation, you are always causing dissatisfaction to someone or other whatever you do. I just get my head down and do as much as I can. How everyone else does it is down to them.

 

[SJN]

I always check as many trains as I can. I like the commission at the end of the month to be honest. I don't go through every single one though.

 

[6Gman]

Which is why it shouldn't be the job of the guard to sell tickets. Every station should have a staffed booking office. No ticket? - no getting on the train.

That will of course never happen....

Can I be booking clerk at Roman Bridge please?

 

[WL113]

Well I take it all back about no ticket checks on the Cannock line. There was a star on there yesterday evening who took no messing! All the usuals who had no intention of paying were ejected at the next station.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

You think it's low here? I've only been checked a couple of times on the Brussels network. I also had no grip at all from Hamburg - Hannover on the ICE, no check on the Hannover - Sardsted section, and no check at all on the DB Metro or any tram network whatsoever. What surprised me, especially on the Hamburg metro, was the lack of gates anywhere

 

[Tracky]

The Germans are far more honest...

 

[DeeGee]

The Germans are far more honest...

I'd like to see statistics on that.

It is true, though, that most of the Germans that I've met are of the opinion that rules don't need to be backed up with enforcement. If you're told to do something, you do it. You just need to see how obedient they are crossing the road to experience that.

Then again, in Germany, it's usually obvious why rules are there. And when they are enforced, they are enforced consistently. None of this "You must buy a ticket" writ large all over the station while the guard on a train at the platform, operated by a different TOC, announces "A full range of tickets can be bought on this train".