Ticket buying confusion from Wakefield Kirkgate

[sheff1]

Following the refurbishment of Wakefield Kirkgate station a TVM has been installed on Platform 1. However, above the only entrance to the station is a brand new prominent sign telling people to buy tickets from the conductor on the train. This new sign is twice the size of the former one shown in this photo from NRE http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stati...otDetails.aspx?stdCode=SME_WKK&fullsize=93698. (NRE also still states there is no TVM at the station)

If you board a Northern train you are very likely to find another prominent notice stating that you MUST buy a ticket before boarding, if joining at a station with ticket issuing facilities, and that "this is the law". The on train poster makes no mention of the fact that there is no breach of the Byelaws if there was a notice, at the station where the journey began, permitting journeys to be started without a valid ticket.

Why is it apparently so difficult for Northern to provide consistent and accurate information ?

 

[mikeg]

(3)
No person shall be in br
each of Byelaw 17(1) or 17(2) if:
(i)
there were no facilit
ies in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the
station where, he began his journey; or
(ii)
there was a notice at the
station where he began his journey
permitting journeys to be started with
out a valid ticket; or
(iii)
an authorised person gave him permission to
travel without a valid ticket.

The railway byelaws seem to be quite clear. If there was a notice permitting one to start a journey without a valid ticket (ie. to buy on the train) no person can be in breach. It is thus permitted to pay on the train at WKK. Of course, whether staff believe that is another matter but my advice to anyone given one of Northern's out of court settlements or failure to pay notices would be to point this out to Northern and expect it to be canceled. Failing that to plead not guilty in court and be acquitted based on the law.

 

[bb21]

Why is it apparently so difficult for Northern to provide consistent and accurate information ?

Someone has probably overlooked it. Not ideal of course, but mistakes happen.

Tweet them to let them know.

As mikeg pointed out, you cannot be in breach if a sign tells you to purchase on the train.

 

[sheff1]

Someone has probably overlooked it.

I could understand if the original sign had been overlooked when the TVM was introduced but that sign has been removed. The new sign was put up during same refurbishment which added the TVM.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why is it apparently so difficult for Northern to provide consistent and accurate information ?

Depends on the type of TVM doesn't it.

I've not been to Kirkgate since the refurbishment, is it a full service TVM or just a card only one?

If the latter, we're back to the age old debate about whether a card-only TVM is a full opportunity to purchase. It's nice of Northern to clarify this with a sign saying that it isn't.

 

[bb21]

I could understand if the original sign had been overlooked when the TVM was introduced but that sign has been removed. The new sign was put up during same refurbishment which added the TVM.

It could simply be that the person dealing with the replacement activity has no retail training. In an ideal world they would, but of course we all know in reality...

 

[Fare-Cop]

The railway byelaws seem to be quite clear. If there was a notice permitting one to start a journey without a valid ticket (ie. to buy on the train) no person can be in breach. It is thus permitted to pay on the train at WKK. Of course, whether staff believe that is another matter but my advice to anyone given one of Northern's out of court settlements or failure to pay notices would be to point this out to Northern and expect it to be canceled. Failing that to plead not guilty in court and be acquitted based on the law.

Whilst the principle is generally correct, I wouldn't quote Byelaw 17.1 or 17.2

This applies to compulsory ticket areas

The correct Byelaw in the case of Wakefield would be Byelaw 18.1 or 18.2 (2005)

 

[johntea]

What makes things even more confusing is certainly at stations such as Kirkgate you now have revenue protection staff hovering around the entrance able to sell tickets, so if I walk past those without a ticket intending to pay on the train technically I've just ignored my first opportunity to purchase a ticket!

Since the TVM would be a card only one I wouldn't class that as a first opportunity to purchase as such, although again if I then want to pay using card on the train I once again have ignored my first opportunity to pay.

But if the sign said I could pay on the train, make of that what you will!

 

[crehld]

What makes things even more confusing is certainly at stations such as Kirkgate you now have revenue protection staff hovering around the entrance able to sell tickets, so if I walk past those without a ticket intending to pay on the train technically I've just ignored my first opportunity to purchase a ticket!

Since the TVM would be a card only one I wouldn't class that as a first opportunity to purchase as such, although again if I then want to pay using card on the train I once again have ignored my first opportunity to pay.

But if the sign said I could pay on the train, make of that what you will!

If official signage instructs you to purchase your ticket on the train, I fail to see how you are doing anything wrong by not using other opportunities which may be present before boarding the train.

 

[hawk1911]

Depends on the type of TVM doesn't it.

I've not been to Kirkgate since the refurbishment, is it a full service TVM or just a card only one?

If the latter, we're back to the age old debate about whether a card-only TVM is a full opportunity to purchase. It's nice of Northern to clarify this with a sign saying that it isn't.

And this tweet, which I have kept a copy of (just in case):

https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/791258566657187840

 

[Starmill]

These signs appear all over the place. The most recent times I visited, there were signs asking passengers to purchase tickets from the conductor on the train at Eaglescliffe and Adwick - both had open ticket offices.

As for ticket machines, I think Northern have removed all of the ones that accepted cash from unstaffed stations. They've also allowed the booking office at Burscough Bridge to close, and removed machines that accepted cash at Warrington Central and Birchwood.

 

[185143]

These signs appear all over the place. The most recent times I visited, there were signs asking passengers to purchase tickets from the conductor on the train at Eaglescliffe and Adwick - both had open ticket offices.

As for ticket machines, I think Northern have removed all of the ones that accepted cash from unstaffed stations. They've also allowed the booking office at Burscough Bridge to close, and removed machines that accepted cash at Warrington Central and Birchwood.

The machine at Birchwood was broken into in TPE days and was replaced by a card only one. I noticed at Newton le Willows, a sign on the TVM saying 'this machine no longer accepts cash'. As it was on the screen, rather than a bit of paper-it sounded permanent.

 

[Starmill]

The machine at Birchwood was broken into in TPE days and was replaced by a card only one. I noticed at Newton le Willows, a sign on the TVM saying 'this machine no longer accepts cash'. As it was on the screen, rather than a bit of paper-it sounded permanent.

Hm thanks for the updates. Of course Newton-le-Willows has a first-to-last booking office, so less of an issue.

 

[lejog]

A sticker has appeared on the TVM at Hebden Bridge advising that the machine will soon be switched to card only operation. The generic wording did make me wonder if this is going to be the case throughout Northernland.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Depends on the type of TVM doesn't it.

I've not been to Kirkgate since the refurbishment, is it a full service TVM or just a card only one?

If the latter, we're back to the age old debate about whether a card-only TVM is a full opportunity to purchase. It's nice of Northern to clarify this with a sign saying that it isn't.

the ticket machine that was installed at Normanton when they did the accessibility upgrades a number of years ago was card only ...

 

[bradford758]

A sticker has appeared on the TVM at Hebden Bridge advising that the machine will soon be switched to card only operation. The generic wording did make me wonder if this is going to be the case throughout Northernland.

The similar TVM at nearby Todmorden is currently oou, following a break-in (to be replaced by a cashless version). There have been similar occurrences throughout the northern network, resulting in a sizeable chunk of cash going, with the decision to replace all the TVM s with the cashless version.
Unfortunately this looks like this will include Hebden Bridge, despite no incident at this location.

 

[Ianigsy]

It probably also saves a lot of bother having to have machines accepting old and new £1 coins and £5 and £10 notes. Not that this has ever exercised Northern that much- try the line of Northern machines at Leeds on a Sunday and you'll find few if any taking cash because they never seem to be emptied.

 

[bradford758]

It probably also saves a lot of bother having to have machines accepting old and new £1 coins and £5 and £10 notes. Not that this has ever exercised Northern that much- try the line of Northern machines at Leeds on a Sunday and you'll find few if any taking cash because they never seem to be emptied.

Ah, Leeds isn't a northern station.

 

[takno]

Ah, Leeds isn't a northern station.

Northern run the ticket office and most of the machines though

 

[johntea]

Came across this sign at Starbeck station which is much clearer in advising that you can EITHER buy your tickets from the machine OR on board

 

[Fare-Cop]

Came across this sign at Starbeck station which is much clearer in advising that you can EITHER buy your tickets from the machine OR on board

From a revenue protection perspective that would be better worded with the addition 'if paying with cash' at the end of the text, but it certainly means that Northern cannot consider charging anyone with a breach of Byelaw 18 if travelling ticketless from any station where that sign is displayed.