Ticket bought on app after boarding the train

[Nida]

You didn't. You say you bought a ticket from Birmingham New Street but you also say that wasn't your starting station:

I was travelling from another station to Birmingham and that journey was done, it was a different train and No problem there.
I needed to have another ticket from Birmingham to London which when I reached Birmingham I purchased but it did not went through properly and I did not realize
After boarding the train, I could not find ticket so I gave a few more tries and then I had success. When checker came, I showed it right away.

Hope this clarifies

I thought the OP said in post 1 they did two things :

1.Attempted to buy a ticket ( whether before boarding or on board the local train is not clear). This failed to go through.

2. On seeing the ticket check, purchased another ticket on board from Birmingham to Euston.

However I don't think the wording in post 15 describes that adequately.

In post #15 I have just mentioned the details of what happened on the journey which was problematic and not how I boarded the train at the first place because its not needed. I purchased the ticket before boarding train but on train realized its not there. I did not purchase ticket on seeing checker, I purchased it as soon as signal allowed me. when checker came I right away showed the ticket I purchased

 

[AlterEgo]

Signage objections are almost never accepted as reasons to dismiss a penalty fare, and we are seeing the enthusiastic trifling of appeal reasons again, mounted one on top of each other, making a big wobbly, ugly, hard-to-read mess.

In my view, signage is a spurious and ineffective ground unless you can show a notice which is clearly non-compliant. Various pictures - lifted from the internet - which don't replicate the passenger's own journey through the station, prove nothing. And remember that passengers don't have to *see* the notice, all the station has to do is display the notices.

The passenger has been committing offences in the past and is worried about being investigated for it. @WesternLancer has hit the nail on the head. The pragmatic view is to pay the Penalty Fare and buy your ticket before travel; you have lost the game, and it has cost you £50.

 

[Cuthbert]

I was travelling from another station to Birmingham and that journey was done, No problem there.
I needed to have another ticket from Bormingham to London which when I reached Birmingham I purchased but it did not went through properly and I did not realize

I did , as mentioned in the details, but did not check email confirmation and it did not come through

Which is it you either bought one from the original station to Euston or you only bought it at Birmingham to Euston.

If the latter my question still stands.

 

[Nida]

Which is it you either bought one from the original station to Euston or you only bought it at Birmingham to Euston.

If the latter my question still stands.

Umm, I don't understand this fully, but in either case I bought it before boarding the train from Birmingham to Euston which did not come on email
The next ticket I bought on the train from Birmingham to Euston but not when the ticket checker came , it was before that

 

[Hadders]

Just to clarify as this is starting to get a little confusing. As I understand it:

@Nida tralled from a 'local station' near Birmingham New Street to Euston
They purchased a ticket from 'local station' to Birmingham New Street
At Birmingham New Street they attempted to purchase a ticket from Birmingham New Street to Euston but it didn't complete
When @Nida saw the ticket inspector coming they went to display the ticket, saw it hadn't gone through and purchased a new ticket
The inspector issued a Penalty Fare

Have I got this right?

The point some people are making is that the price of a ticket from 'local station' to Euston is almost certainly the same as from Birmingham New Street to Euston, so why didn't you just buy a through ticket to start with. Doing what you did makes it look like you were paying when challenged.

 

[AlterEgo]

Umm, I don't understand this fully, but in either case I bought it before boarding the train from Birmingham to Euston which did not come on email

You didn't buy it then.

Look, the train company isn't stupid and they deal with this day in and day out. Paying when challenged is elementary fare evasion. You may have some technical defences to the penalty fare, but the company is known for trawling your previous purchases, and may demand settlement for those. You know this and it is what bothers you.

Pay up and buy the correct ticket in future before you board. Then nobody can claim you only pay when challenged, and importantly, keeps you on the right side of the law - what you've done is actually a criminal offence, at minimum under the Railway Bylaws.

 

[Nida]

Just to clarify as this is starting to get a little confusing. As I understand it:

@Nida tralled from a 'local station' near Birmingham New Street to Euston
They purchased a ticket from 'local station' to Birmingham New Street
At Birmingham New Street they attempted to purchase a ticket from Birmingham New Street to Euston but it didn't complete
When @Nida saw the ticket inspector coming they went to display the ticket, saw it hadn't gone through and purchased a new ticket
The inspector issued a Penalty Fare

Have I got this right?

The point some people are making is that the price of a ticket from 'local station' to Euston is almost certainly the same as from Birmingham New Street to Euston, so why didn't you just buy a through ticket to start with. Doing what you did makes it look like you were paying when challenged.

Bit of correction

I travelled not from a 'local station' to Birmingham New Street. It was Telford, that ticket was fine

Going to Euston was a last minute need when I was about to reach Birmingham, so I purchased ticket at Birmingham new street before boarding the next train to Euston and it showed success but email never came
Upon checking ticket on train and not finding it , gave few tries and finally got it and that was before seeing the ticket checker.
Inspector came and asked for ticket, I already had it and simply showed.
The inspector issued a Penalty Fare saying it was bought after departure.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2025 ==

You didn't buy it then.

Look, the train company isn't stupid and they deal with this day in and day out. Paying when challenged is elementary fare evasion. You may have some technical defences to the penalty fare, but the company is known for trawling your previous purchases, and may demand settlement for those. You know this and it is what bothers you.

Pay up and buy the correct ticket in future before you board. Then nobody can claim you only pay when challenged, and importantly, keeps you on the right side of the law - what you've done is actually a criminal offence, at minimum under the Railway Bylaws.

I bought it but after boarding the train. Not at the time when checker asked
So do you think that making an appeal can lead to a bigger problem than penalty?

 

[anothertyke]

It sounds as though you are intent on appealing whatever the experts on here say ( not me I hasten to add).

I would say that if that is what you decide to do, you need to tell the exact story as you have described in post 37 just above. You should evidence your Telford to New St ticket to demonstrate that. You should evidence the time of your attempted ticket purchase at New st stn. You should evidence the time of your successful purchase on the train so that you can demonstrate it was significantly before you were PFd.

Even if you do all that, you will probably lose because by your own admission you did not actually have a valid ticket before boarding. But giving a complete and verifiable account of the sequence of events is your best chance.

 

[AlterEgo]

I bought it but after boarding the train. Not at the time when checker asked
So do you think that making an appeal can lead to a bigger problem than penalty?

Which sounds better to you? £50 penalty fare and learning a lesson, or risking the train company discovering your past offences too?

Your story fails the Swiss Cheese test ("what is the likelihood that if you stack slices of Swiss cheese on top of each other, that the holes all line up?").

Any one of:

- I suddenly had a really urgent change of plans to visit London and not Birmingham
- Buying, in the end, a more expensive combination of tickets to make the journey
- Seeing "success" but "not getting the email", yet despite the "success" message, it transpiring you hadn't actually bought the ticket
- Buying a "new" ticket once you saw the rare sight of a Revenue Protection Inspector

are all unfortunate or unusual in and of themselves, but added together reduce the likelihood of the story being believed without any evidence. I don't think it's reasonable for you to expect a train company to believe that sequence of events.

Your interests are best served by the train company not investigating you.

 

[Nida]

Which sounds better to you? £50 penalty fare and learning a lesson, or risking the train company discovering your past offences too?

Your story fails the Swiss Cheese test ("what is the likelihood that if you stack slices of Swiss cheese on top of each other, that the holes all line up?").

Any one of:

- I suddenly had a really urgent change of plans to visit London and not Birmingham
- Buying, in the end, a more expensive combination of tickets to make the journey
- Seeing "success" but "not getting the email", yet despite the "success" message, it transpiring you hadn't actually bought the ticket
- Buying a "new" ticket once you saw the rare sight of a Revenue Protection Inspector

are all unfortunate or unusual in and of themselves, but added together reduce the likelihood of the story being believed without any evidence. I don't think it's reasonable for you to expect a train company to believe that sequence of events.

Your interests are best served by the train company not investigating you.

I don't have problem paying the penalty , what I don't want is unfair payment or them thinking me as an easy target to exploit further because I paid penalty without fight back.
I know my understanding for it to be unfair based on flexi ticket validity/usage or signage can be incorrect which is why I have asked on this forum if I am wrong.

 

[AlterEgo]

I don't have problem paying the penalty , what I don't want is unfair payment or them thinking me as an easy target to exploit further because I paid penalty without fight back.

You're an easy target because you keep committing Bylaw 18 offences - at minimum. I'm not sure you want the company looking at your purchase history.

So, my recommendation is to pay the Penalty Fare and chalk it up to experience. Your continual vacillation about whether you'd like the risk and danger of presenting a wobbling tower of penalty fare appeal reasons versus simply paying the PF and learning your lesson - as well as your expectation for your story to be believed - would tell me you are quite naive.

If you pay the penalty fare the company is not likely to investigate you. I would not consider engaging in brinksmanship with the train company over this if I were you.

I know my understanding for it to be unfair based on flexi ticket validity/usage

...this doesn't make any sense, I am not sure what you mean by this?

or signage can be incorrect which is why I have asked on this forum if I am wrong.

You may have technical defences available to you, but if I were you I would not try to arouse the train company's suspicion any further. Note that the Penalty Fares Regulations don't determine whether the PF was "fair", they only set out the circumstances it can be issued, with fairness not a matter for consideration. One way of getting PFs overturned it so show, for example, they made a mistake by not charging you *enough*!

 

[azOOOOOma]

I don't have problem paying the penalty , what I don't want is unfair payment or them thinking me as an easy target to exploit further because I paid penalty without fight back.
I know my understanding for it to be unfair based on flexi ticket validity/usage or signage can be incorrect which is why I have asked on this forum if I am wrong.

They won’t exploit you further. As this was a one off genuine error on your part, surely paying the PF closes the matter. It’s not like you’re going to do it again, is it?

 

[Hadders]

If you have travelled with invalid tickets before then I would be wary of appealing. It is your right to appeal but once you come to the attention of the train company for one offence they are highly likely to conduct a check of your ticket purchasing history.

They won’t exploit you further. As this was a one off genuine error on your part, surely paying the PF closes the matter. It’s not like you’re going to do it again, is it?

West Midlands Trains can take no further action in respect of the incident where they were stopped. That said, once someone has come to the attention of WMT they tend to conduct a check of the persons online ticket purchasing history and based on what @Nida has told us this could be problematic as there are purchases of tickets after the train has departed and also a high level of refunds.

While we normally encourage people to appeal in this case it might be best if the OP did not do anything that would draw the attention of WMT to their onine ticket purchasing account, especially as an appeal is highly unlikely to succeed.

 

[Nida]

They won’t exploit you further. As this was a one off genuine error on your part, surely paying the PF closes the matter. It’s not like you’re going to do it again, is it?

Never I might not even take the train

Thanks all for the input and guidance.