Ticket bought at Gate

[pyrrhic]

Hey,

My partner and I were travelling from Queen's Park (TFL) to Euston station using the overground - we were rushing off for a holiday and there was overcrowding at the gates (which we explained to the train officers) so we did not tap in, but we ensured to buy tickets before we exited through the gates. I didn't realise this was a problem - if I wanted to 'cheat' I could tap through and claim a refund, or try any other of the tricks people use for free travel. We also didn't apply any railcards as we don't have any. They were two Anytime Day Single on trainline 12/02/26; the only potential issue is that we bought tickets for the following train as our train already arrived, so we received a penalty at 9.58am but our tickets were for 10:09-10:22 am... But usually these tickets can be used on other services, no? For some reason, also, they listed my departure location from Harrow and Wealdstone but both my ticket and my statement confirm that I was travelling from Queen's Park. Also, I had my train ticket automatically refunded as I didn't realise it would be a printed ticket to collect at the station since obviously I bought my ticket after my departing station: this was how we were charged, because I alerted the train worker that I had a ticket but couldn't pass through.

Below is a copy of my PF charged by WM Trains Limited.

Thank you for your help.

 

[AlterEgo]

What is the time of issue of the Penalty Fare? This is important.

Which train did you catch from Queens Park?

 

[reb0118]

Question: do West Midlands inspectors barrier arrivals from London Overground services?

 

[tatitiliti]

Hey,

My partner and I were travelling from Queen's Park (TFL) to Euston station using the overground - we were rushing off for a holiday and there was overcrowding at the gates (which we explained to the train officers) so we did not tap in, but we ensured to buy tickets before we exited through the gates. I didn't realise this was a problem - if I wanted to 'cheat' I could tap through and claim a refund, or try any other of the tricks people use for free travel. We also didn't apply any railcards as we don't have any. They were two Anytime Day Single on trainline 12/02/26; the only potential issue is that we bought tickets for the following train as our train already arrived, so we received a penalty at 9.58am but our tickets were for 10:09-10:22 am... But usually these tickets can be used on other services, no? For some reason, also, they listed my departure location from Harrow and Wealdstone but both my ticket and my statement confirm that I was travelling from Queen's Park. Also, I had my train ticket automatically refunded as I didn't realise it would be a printed ticket to collect at the station since obviously I bought my ticket after my departing station: this was how we were charged, because I alerted the train worker that I had a ticket but couldn't pass through.

Below is a copy of my PF charged by WM Trains Limited.

Thank you for your help.

You travelled from Queen’s Park, no, not Harrow & Wealdstone as specified on the PFN?

 

[AlterEgo]

What time did your train leave Queen’s Park and what time did the transaction for your ticket go through?

It is not a requirement to scan a QR code ticket but it is a requirement to buy before you board. If you bought the ticket after the train departed, you are lucky you only got a PFN.

Let us have a look at the notice itself as your only grounds for appeal would be on a technicality.

The notice is attached in the opening post. They didn't have a QR code ticket because this is not an eticket flow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2026 ==

Question: do West Midlands inspectors barrier arrivals from London Overground services?

Yes. They share platforms.

 

[pyrrhic]

Question: do West Midlands inspectors barrier arrivals from London Overground services?

Yes my train arrived on the same platform as the fast West Midlands trains.

 

[pyrrhic]

What is the time of issue of the Penalty Fare? This is important.

Which train did you catch from Queens Park?

This is specified on the original post. But I caught the 09.39-09.52 I believe... I am unsure as I don't have concrete 'proof' of which service I boarded, but looking at the timetables this one makes the most sense..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2026 ==

You travelled from Queen’s Park, no, not Harrow & Wealdstone as specified on the PFN?

Yes. I don't know why it was put as that on my ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2026 ==

The Penalty Fare is procedurally invalid on several grounds:

1) You used an Overground service. WMT and London Overground both have Penalty Fares schemes, but they operate under completely different legal regimes. TfL issue Penalty Fares under Schedule 17 of the Greater London Authority Act 1999, whilst WMT issue theirs under the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018.

The amount that a PF is issued for, the requirements for signage and way you appeal are all different between these two systems. WMT cannot lawfully issue a PF under the 2018 Regulations to someone who travelled on the Overground, since the Overground is not an operator that participates in the 2018 Regulations - their logo is not on the signs that (ostensibly try to) comply with the 2018 Regulations.

2) You were issued with a Penalty Fare from Harrow & Wealdstone even though you boarded at Queens Park. Regulation 9(3)(a) requires the Penalty Fare to be issued from the station you boarded at - not some other random station. This isn't some trivial difference - the signage in place can be different at one station vs another, and this may form an important part of your appeal.

3) The Penalty Fare was not issued for the correct amount - unless you are aged 15 or under (but I suspect you would have mentioned this if it was the case). As per Regulation 9(2A), a PF must be issued for the "full single fare for the journey in question", which from Queens Park to Euston would be £7.00 for an Anytime Day Single. You were charged £3.50, I suspect based on this being the PAYG (Oyster/contactless) fare - but this is generally not recognised as being the "full single fare". Yes, it may seem trivial that you are 'complaining' about being undercharged, but again, the Regulations set out rules for how PFs must be issued, which the member of staff did not comply with in this case.

Each of these 3 are reasons that, "the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of [the 2018] Regulations", which as per PF Regulation 16(3)(a), is grounds for the PF being overturned on appeal.

I would incorporate the above into your appeal. You don't have long left until the discounted period runs out, so I would submit an appeal today (after a few others have chimed in on my thoughts above) to get the clock 'stopped' on the 21 day discounted period.

In our experience, multiple appeals are often needed to get domeone to actually properly look at your appeal. First and second stage appeals are often denied on spurious or unclear grounds, only for similar grounds to be accepted at the third, final stage. So don't "give up" just because a first or second appeal is refused.

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[furlong]

Yes. I don't know why it was put as that on my ticket.

We've seen this before with this train company: their machines, quite correctly, aren't capable of issuing penalties from stations where a penalty wouldn't be valid and some staff seem then to improvise and use a different station!

 

[CarrotPie]

Yes. I don't know why it was put as that on my ticket.

I imagine because WMT don't serve Queen's Park and so the closest station they do serve is Harrow & Wealdstone.

 

[z444z]

@Watershed has hit all the points above. OP if you haven’t already appealed I’d suggest posting your draft here for us to review - but make sure you don’t miss the deadline

 

[boiledbeans2]

Isn't Queen's Park station barriered? How did you enter without tickets?