Ticket barriers

[Intermodal]

Hi all,

I'm sure I read a few times that manual or automatic ticket barriers cannot be used as a reason to deny entry to the station and are there to check tickets only, and you must be allowed to enter if you ask the barrier staff.

Is this true or am I making it up? If it is true, where does it state this? I've looked in the NRCoC and can't find anything, but I'm 95% sure I remember reading this.

Thanks!

 

[SS4]

Hi all,

I'm sure I read a few times that manual or automatic ticket barriers cannot be used as a reason to deny entry to the station and are there to check tickets only, and you must be allowed to enter if you ask the barrier staff.

Is this true or am I making it up? If it is true, where does it state this? I've looked in the NRCoC and can't find anything, but I'm 95% sure I remember reading this.

Thanks!

Not for compulsory ticket areas

No person shall enter a compulsory ticket area on the railway unless he has
with him a valid ticket.

 

[Intermodal]

Not for compulsory ticket areas

Is that the same thing as a penalty fare area?

 

[SS4]

Is that the same thing as a penalty fare area?

No, a compulsory ticket area is a part of a station whereby one needs a ticket to be in.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

“compulsory ticket area” means any area designated as such under a Penalty Fares
Scheme and identified by a notice to this effect. Persons who enter a compulsory
ticket area without being in possession of a valid ticket may be liable to pay a penalty
fare;

So my apologies, you're kind of right

 

[yorkie]

You do not need a ticket to enter a non-CTA area, but if there are barriers they may choose to ask you purchase a platform ticket. In my experience of non-CTA areas, they simply wave you through though.

At CTA areas you do need a platform ticket, but they can choose not to issue platform tickets and wave you through instead, but you can't simply walk through without asking first.

4.10 At stations with a CTA, operators must make arrangements for people who are not travelling to be allowed into the part of the station covered by the CTA, if they have a good reason. This includes people who are meeting passengers, seeing passengers off or helping them with luggage, people helping passengers with disabilities, and people such as railway enthusiasts"

Is any station not meeting this obligation?

(I am aware of a staff member at a particular station in the South East who claims his station is a CTA (it isn't) and claims people without tickets must exit at a particular exit, and not his exit. If anyone is interested in taking this further, send me a PM)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is that the same thing as a penalty fare area?

It is not the same thing, no.

A Penalty Fare station may be a CTA, or it may not be.

But a station cannot have a CTA if it is not part of a PF scheme.

 

[Intermodal]

Is any station not meeting this obligation?

No, at least not when I argue the point with them, but I was wondering incase I ever did get flat out refused.

Two questions:

1) How can I find out if a station is a CTA?
2) Where is that quote you cited from (the one with 4.10 at the front)?

 

[Crossforth]

You do not need a ticket to enter a non-CTA area, but if there are barriers they may choose to ask you purchase a platform ticket. In my experience of non-CTA areas, they simply wave you through though.

At CTA areas you do need a platform ticket, but they can choose not to issue platform tickets and wave you through instead, but you can't simply walk through without asking first.
Is any station not meeting this obligation?

(I am aware of a staff member at a particular station in the South East who claims his station is a CTA (it isn't) and claims people without tickets must exit at a particular exit, and not his exit. If anyone is interested in taking this further, send me a PM)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is not the same thing, no.

A Penalty Fare station may be a CTA, or it may not be.

But a station cannot have a CTA if it is not part of a PF scheme.

Trouble is with platform tickets is that the booking office and barrier staff don't always talk to each other.

I did it at Leeds once, bought a platform ticket and the barrier staff wouldn't let me through till the BTP came and verified that they are valid ways of being allowed onto the platform.

 

[Mojo]

1) How can I find out if a station is a CTA?

Compulsory ticket areas must be adequately signed. The signs look similar, but one says:

''You are about to enter a Compulsory Ticket Area.

You must have a valid ticket before passing this point.''

Whereas the other says:

''Please buy your ticket before you travel, otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare (at least £20).''

In addition, the Penalty fare leaflets which must be published, should also clarify which stations are CTAs or not, an example here being the LM leaflet which shows Birmingham Moor Street & Snow Hill in red. However I would not rely on this in all cases, and would ensure to check signs carefully. If the station has barriers, check the sticker under the display. If it says something about passing this point, then it is probably a CTA. If not, then look out for signs.

2) Where is that quote you cited from (the one with 4.10 at the front)?

See the Penalty fares rules and Penalty fares policy on the DfT website http://www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/index.html

 

[sunday]

Birmingham Snow Hill has a "You are now entering a CTA" poster before you actually reach the ticket office. Presumably this voids the CTA as you could not buy a full range of tickets before entering, if the sign is to be believed.

 

[Stigy]

No, at least not when I argue the point with them, but I was wondering incase I ever did get flat out refused.

Two questions:

1) How can I find out if a station is a CTA?
2) Where is that quote you cited from (the one with 4.10 at the front)?

As far as I'm aware, only very few TOCs operate CTAs. London Underground have them I believe. I think it's still up to the discretion of staff as to who they let on railway property. For example, the known fare evader who states he's "meeting a friend" on the platform, would set alarm bells ringing...

 

[causton]

As far as I'm aware, only very few TOCs operate CTAs. London Underground have them I believe. I think it's still up to the discretion of staff as to who they let on railway property. For example, the known fare evader who states he's "meeting a friend" on the platform, would set alarm bells ringing...

You can't just say 'let the staff decide' - if it's not a CTA then they have to let someone on the platforms, and if it is there needs to be a way (i.e. platform tickets) of letting people onto the platform. Even if there's barriers you have to let people (the guidance lists seeing people off with heavy luggage, people helping a disabled passenger, and even rail enthusiasts as examples!) on and off!

 

[AlterEgo]

Birmingham Snow Hill has a "You are now entering a CTA" poster before you actually reach the ticket office. Presumably this voids the CTA as you could not buy a full range of tickets before entering, if the sign is to be believed.

Yes - I have noticed this too. I met my girlfriend at Moor St a couple of weeks ago and sat, without a ticket, on the benches directly opposite the gateline.

I don't believe the CTA there is properly enforceable. I was there for a good twenty minutes in full view of the chaps on the gate, who did not bat an eyelid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is also worth noting that barriers or CTAs must not interfere with public rights of way. Luton station is a good example of a station with a right of way directly through the station building.

 

[sulli_os]

I've encountered EMT staff at Sheffield not adhering to this. It wasn't a proper barrier (planning permission refused because they wouldn't be in keeping with the building - lol!) but a human barrier made up of staff. When I informed them that I was travelling from the Supertram stop (East of station) to the bus interchange (West of station) they simply refused to let me across the bridge.

 

[quak_C]

whats the deal with stations like glasgow central high level where there is no automatic ticket barriers (altho they are getting them possibly as soon as september) but at peak times they have station staff and barriers to the platforms for revenue purposes?

 

[deltic1989]

Ive never had that much of an issue with passing barriers with or without a ticket (platform or otherwise). I simply infrom the staff on the barrier what I wish to do, and enquire about the possibility of purchaseing a platform ticket. In all the cases ive done this i've had a camera and notebook with me (looking like a normals idea of a rail enthusiast), and in 99.9% of cases the staff have informed me of a few ground rules (no boarding trains, no pictures of staff/ public, and pictures for personal use only) and allowed on the station. in the 0.01% where no platform ticket is available or the staff are unwilling to let me through, i just visit the ticket office and buy a day return to the next station along the line, I did this once at Newark Northgate, when there was a new member of staff who was airing on the side of caution (hats off to the guy he was only doing his job) and he let me on the platform and congratulated me on my cunning.

 

[David Goddard]

I was at Bedford station some years ago and asked to be let on at the gate.
The attendant said I needed a platform ticket.
I went to the ticket office and they said "just have a word with the gateline"
Went back to the gateline and was let through but then was directed to a seat on the platform and ordered to "sit on it and stay there where I could be seen". I promptly turned around and left the station.