Ticket Barriers

[amn140174]

Just a few question's about how the barriers work. More towards the ones that dont keep your ticket but also one about the ones that do.

If I travel from York to Newcastle at say 09:00 in the morning and arrive at Newcastle at around 10:00 if I then think I will stay on the platform for a couple of hours will I then have an issue with the barriers of is they no time limit on them?

When I put my ticket in and take it back out has the barrier then cancelled the ticket so it will not work again?

From what I have picked up from this forum the barrier can tell what type of ticket I have but is this information then recorded on a central database so it can bee seen how many types of tickets have been used?

And finally the barriers that keep you ticket, what do they do with the tickets, are they just put in a black bag and bined or is they some other use for them?

 

[jon0844]

Recycled, I'd hope.

Certainly nobody is filing them or anything like that!

 

[krus_aragon]

Recycled, I'd hope.

Certainly nobody is filing them or anything like that!

Cardiff central's main barriers are periodically emptied into the nearby bin. I helped a ticketer a few days back when he spilt some trying to feed them all in.

 

[142094]

Are the barriers at Newcastle up and running yet, or are they still testing them? Do let us know when you go.

You shouldn't have any problems with the barriers as the ticket will still be valid, if for instance you have a single ticket York - Newcastle the barrier doesn't know what time you bought it on that day, could be 09.00 or 21.00.

I guess once a ticket has gone through the barriers it will be cancelled, although I've heard stories about tickets that haven't been and still open the barriers.

 

[amn140174]

142094, Last time I passed through on Friday the barriers were Open but still had the posters up about being on test. The last I was told was back in october that the barriers would not be in operation until after the busy Holiday period. Will find out today if an exact date has been set and when this will be.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Yes, the Newcastle barriers are still permanently open - not even "under test".

 

[142094]

They want to stay that way as well. Wonder how long it will be before they are removed?

 

[Lampshade]

I doubt they will be, I think they made a special case of York for PR reasons. Shame really, another spectacular building up the swanny.

 

[142094]

I bet there will be a time, either they'll be damage and taken out fo service (like on the Metro) or everyone starts using things like Oyster cards so there is no need. E.g. by getting on a train you are automatically paying via RFID or whatever the hell it is.

 

[Lampshade]

Didn't you know they're reinstalling them on the Metro now? hock:

 

[Aictos]

Recycled, I'd hope.

Certainly nobody is filing them or anything like that!

Well I can say the old tickets from the FCC ticket barriers do get recycled along with any paper rubbish which can't be reused in the offices ie has writing on both sides.

Not only that but at a few stations, there's a ongoing trial for passengers to dispose of their newspapers using special newspapers/magazines only recycling bins.

I know there were plans for more recycling bins to be installed for other rubbish but that's on hold.

 

[142094]

Didn't you know they're reinstalling them on the Metro now? hock:

Aye, although they have to put new ticket machines in first which will take a while. If they are putting them in at some stations they should really expand it and do all the stations, but I guess they haven't got the money.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Aye, although they have to put new ticket machines in first which will take a while. If they are putting them in at some stations they should really expand it and do all the stations, but I guess they haven't got the money.

How difficult is it going to be to gate the newer metro stations which have never had barriers?

 

[Daniel]

With regards to where tickets go, as far as LU ones are concerned, they are dumped into a bin inside the gate, which are emptied periodically and the tickets then recycled.

 

[142094]

How difficult is it going to be to gate the newer metro stations which have never had barriers?

At the stations they are doing at shouldn't be too hard, like Monument, Manors, Haymarket, Central Station as these orignially had them. However if they do expand them to stations which are away from the main urban areas, say Chillingham Road, Byker, Meadow Well, people would be able to easily get around them and they would no doubt get vandalised there anyway.

 

[moonrakerz]

Cardiff central's main barriers are periodically emptied into the nearby bin.

That's a rarity - a station with a litter bin !

 

[Helvellyn]

And finally the barriers that keep you ticket, what do they do with the tickets, are they just put in a black bag and bined or is they some other use for them?

I believe the information is used to look at passenger volumes, etc. It can help with train planning to assess passenger flows, numbers travelling on certain trains. It can also highlight potential revenue protection problems. I've been told of a story that after the barriers were put in at Waterloo the number of Waterloo to Vauxhall tickets being put through the barriers at Waterloo far exceeded the numbers being put through the barriers at Vauxhall!

 

[glynn80]

I believe the information is used to look at passenger volumes, etc.

The information certainly isn't used for those purposes, that statistic is calculated using the LENNON sales database which is the rail industry's standard ticket sales database logging nearly all ticket sales in GB. You can read more about the station usage (passenger volumes at each station) statistics methodology on the ORR website (http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1529)

It can help with train planning to assess passenger flows, numbers travelling on certain trains.

Again I don't believe barrier footfall statistics are used for future passenger demand forecasting, that function is carried out using a combination of the LENNON statistics mentioned above and crucially the Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook (http://www.atoc.org/RPDFS/02_PDF_Handbook.asp), a quick overview of which can be summarised as follows:

Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook

Forecasts of rail passenger demand typically use the forecasting methodology in the Passenger Demand Forecasting Handbook (PDFH). The PDFH is produced by industry parties, managed by ATOC, and contains the industry’s standard approach to demand forecasting.

The PDFH methodology predicts changes to rail passenger demand based on changes in a number of key factors, or “drivers” of rail demand. Some of these are external to the rail industry, such as GDP, population, employment, road congestion and motoring costs; others are internal to the industry, such as fares levels, and the service frequencies and journey times offered to passengers.

Moreover, many forecasts of rail passenger demand do not just use the same methodology; they use similar inputs. For example, predictions of “background” demand growth (i.e. growth excluding the effects of changes to train services) are typically made using the following inputs:

• GDP, population and employment projections from official or highly regarded independent sources (e.g. the DfT’s TEMPRO database, the London Plan, Oxford Economic Forecasting, Cambridge Econometrics)

• Government estimates (from TEMPRO) of trends in competing modes, notably the cost of fuel and road journey times.

• An assumption that all fares increase by RPI+1% each year

The PDFH methodology, applied to consistent or broadly similar assumptions, has been used for our demand forecasts for RUSs; for the DfT’s forecasts underpinning the England & Wales HLOS; and for most business cases for individual enhancement schemes. We therefore expect a broad consistency between the various forecasts. This is typically what we find, as described in section 3 of this document.

 

[jon0844]

Each ticket is coded, so surely the gates can record this information and have that data downloaded/transmitted for analysis to spot the numbers of people buying a ticket to the next stop then continuing on.

I'd expect someone to have written software to work with the data produced by the gatelines so this should be dead easy and give revenue a clear idea of areas to 'hit'. Most notably having RPIs on board that start to check tickets beyond Vauxhall.

FCC will often do checks from Potters Bar and try and get people who bought a ticket from WGC or Hatfield to Potters Bar but then try their luck on getting to Finsbury Park and on to the underground for free (until this is gated, FCC will lose a fortune this way).

The design of Finsbury Park doesn't lend itself very well to gates though.

 

[142094]

Re - using gates to assess passenger flows. This could be done but at Leeds there is the big problem that when a barrier attendant lets someone through with that card, and holds the gate open for a while, this is only counted as one passenger going in and out when it may be 2 or 20.