Ticket Barriers in General

[jon0844]

Not surprised at all. I would say that when people learn there are gates in operation, the fare evaders resort to other tricks - like child tickets, YPRC fares (without a card) or buying tickets for just one or two stations.

 

[blacknight]

Barrier staff can control each barrier individually from the user control panel which also acts as a diagnostic tool in the event of an error occurring. Barriers can be set to reject certain destinations which is useful if you want to do a full manual check of tickets from a given destination (for example Castle Cary during the Glastonbury festival) My favourite is the childlock which refuses all child tickets, we get as many penalty fares as a result of this tool as we do from ticketless passengers.

Here we go making assumptions that all teenagers are possible fare evaders call for the yellow jackets where as you dress same person in suite & you can pass freely through automated gates.
Look at cost of weekly season ticket which can be purchased at a TVM with no check of photocard compared with walk up fare I know which I would be doing manual check of.
As for passengers travelling on child tickets I think thats an urban myth as they are more likely to be travelling on tickets discounted by railcards again issued by TVM with no check for a valid railcard.
Sorry must have left it at home if challenged pay the excess fare.
On subject of penalty fares interesting article in last weeks London Evening Standard on 13 Aug on avoidence of paying any penalty fare.

 

[Mojo]

Here is the article here: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...s+to+avoid+penalty+fares+on+trains/article.do

 

[jon0844]

Here we go making assumptions that all teenagers are possible fare evaders call for the yellow jackets where as you dress same person in suite & you can pass freely through automated gates.
Look at cost of weekly season ticket which can be purchased at a TVM with no check of photocard compared with walk up fare I know which I would be doing manual check of.
As for passengers travelling on child tickets I think thats an urban myth as they are more likely to be travelling on tickets discounted by railcards again issued by TVM with no check for a valid railcard.
Sorry must have left it at home if challenged pay the excess fare.
On subject of penalty fares interesting article in last weeks London Evening Standard on 13 Aug on avoidence of paying any penalty fare.

It's not an urban myth, plenty of people (obviously youngsters by definition) try and get through with child tickets. Many still claim to be children despite it being blatantly obvious they're not. The fact is, it's harder to accuse someone of being too old for a child ticket than it is to catch someone with a YP ticket and no supporting railcard.

As for a weekly season, is it really such a problem for someone to buy one without the photocard? The photocard didn't get a discount, as a disabled or senior railcard would.

We all know that the 'suits' will fare evade too, which is why I said they need more checks on ordinary seasons too - and I've been told that from time to time they will stop season ticket holders. But, stopping child tickets and YP tickets is still incredibly beneficial - and I wonder if they do the same for other discounted tickets (e.g. senior or disabled railcards) on the same basis.

Why not ask to watch over a gateline for a whole day and see what is happening. Some people are very clever with their frauds, but most aren't.

The '10 reasons' site is interesting, especially 1 and 10.

1; The acceptable waiting time, I suspect, is a LOT longer than people really wait. Even queuing for a ticket extenstion at Liverpool Street ahead of V-festival has never taken longer than the time allowed.. but plenty of people will say they waited 20, 30, 40 minutes. I'd honestly say that most of them are lying - yet this will often be the sole defence for avoiding a penalty fare.

10. Don't abuse the system: Quite obviously there will be lots of people now printing this out and trying things on - and while penalty fares are a civil matter, anyone that tries to get around the system can of course be referred to court.

 

[Mojo]

Of course, I think some of it is pretty poor advice - if you don't pay your Penalty Fare, some TOCs don't try to reclaim the money by suing you because they simply use the notes taken when issing a Penalty Fare and go down the criminal route for a prosecution.

 

[philjo]

I notice the name of the author of this article....

 

[glynn80]

Of course, I think some of it is pretty poor advice - if you don't pay your Penalty Fare, some TOCs don't try to reclaim the money by suing you because they simply use the notes taken when issing a Penalty Fare and go down the criminal route for a prosecution.

I think it is actually quite good advice.

There is nothing in the article that leads me to believe you would be prosecuted and the majority of his assertions have been what I have witnessed from railway staff.

His claims about IPFAS and IAS mirror investigations I made into the companies. Copies of letters I have received from passengers consistently state the same thing:

"A Penalty Fare Notice has been issued because you were not in possession of a valid ticket for the journey being made

The Penalty Fare Rules work in conjunction with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage. Both clearly state that it is the passenger's responsibility to ensure they are in possession of a valid ticket for their entire journey before joining the train. A copy of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage may be obtained direct from the Train Company, or downloaded from the National Rail website at Nationalrail.co.uk

Warning posters are displayed at all stations to which the Rules apply advising passengers of the necessity to have a valid ticket, or other authority to travel, available for inspection and the consequences in failing to do so

On this occasion having assessed your appeal, the monies paid for the journey have been accepted and the outstanding balance waived."

What the Appeal Services do, is when a genuine appeal is received, rather than uphold the appeal and refer the passenger back to the TOC to claim the refund of the difference between the full Single fare they paid and the actual ticket they were entitled to; they just accept the full Single fare and state that "on this occasion" they will accept the monies you have already paid, but neither confirm or deny whether the appeal you made was valid or not.

In fact I have never seen an appeal upheld and then a refund given to the passenger, if anyone has ever had this occur I would be most grateful to hear of the circumstances.

 

[poshbakerloo]

I think ticket barriers are a good idea. But only when they are good barriers and work! The ones on the tube work very will and are fast! The main issue is that a lot of station that have them such as Manchester Oxford Road have very slow barriers that don't work with half the tickets! So they end up getting checked anyway by some guy!

 

[Matt Taylor]

Here we go making assumptions that all teenagers are possible fare evaders call for the yellow jackets where as you dress same person in suite & you can pass freely through automated gates.
Look at cost of weekly season ticket which can be purchased at a TVM with no check of photocard compared with walk up fare I know which I would be doing manual check of.
As for passengers travelling on child tickets I think thats an urban myth as they are more likely to be travelling on tickets discounted by railcards again issued by TVM with no check for a valid railcard.
Sorry must have left it at home if challenged pay the excess fare.
On subject of penalty fares interesting article in last weeks London Evening Standard on 13 Aug on avoidence of paying any penalty fare.

Where did I make any suggestions about the honesty of any particular demographic? And please elaborate with regard to suits and the comparison between seasons and walk up fares because I don't know what you are trying to imply by what you are saying.

The fact that you think that the child fare fiddle is an urban myth is just laughable, many many penalty fares would sugeest otherwise.

 

[blacknight]

Where did I make any suggestions about the honesty of any particular demographic? And please elaborate with regard to suits and the comparison between seasons and walk up fares because I don't know what you are trying to imply by what you are saying.

The fact that you think that the child fare fiddle is an urban myth is just laughable, many many penalty fares would sugeest otherwise.

If you are targeting for instance fans from Glastonbury then the vast majority of passengers passing through manual check would be the under 25 age group, which is making an assumption of Student hippy possible fare evader ticket please-Business suit Good Night Sir. Better by far to subject all passengers to 100% manual ticket checks.
Would for instance you say target passengers returning from The Last Night of the Proms in the same way. If as been said by others that YP Railcards are blocked is that again is demographic targeting would they be prepared to do likewise with Senior Railcards, not so nice having to excess little old ladies who have forgot their railcards.
By your own actions in having to resort to manual ticket barrier checks automated gates are just a simple card reader that says Go-NoGo & will not spot majority of ticket fraud that happens.
When Doncaster is subject to manual ticket checks its amazing how many people have travelled in from Bentley & Adwick when asked for their ticket.

 

[jon0844]

Surely targeting people going to Glastonbury is a pretty specific example to use? Surely you adjust your checks for things like that, or other events - e.g. football matches.

Ticket fraud happens every day, but there are some simple ways to eliminate some of the easier frauds like using a child ticket, or getting a YP discount without a railcard.

If they do random stops on weekly/monthly/annual seasons then I have no problem - coupled with on-board checks which are just as essential when you have 100% of stations gated - to stop people travelling further and using tickets to the next station at either end (in London, perfectly done with an Oyster card).

 

[thelem]

When Doncaster is subject to manual ticket checks its amazing how many people have travelled in from Bentley & Adwick when asked for their ticket.

Do the ticket inspectors do anything to prevent this? For example they could have people at these stations marking all tickets of people boarding. That way when a customer arrived at Doncaster and their ticket wasn't marked they could be excessed.

 

[Mojo]

I think so. There was a story posted here where a woman claimed to have come from a different station to the one she actually came in on (she alleged it was a mistake, and either way the fare difference was 5p or something), but that station had a revenue block on that day so they knew she had not come from there.

 

[daccer]

I feel the issue of ticket fraud is the railways achilles heel. I can think of no other transport system where travelling for free seems so easy.

I think ticket gates are a necessity - of course you must have someone to work the barrier also in case of problems. The LU system is accepted by all travellers as a matter of course why should Network Rail be any different. I think if barriers were installed at all major stations then it would soon be second nature to most travellers to use them.

I have extreme scepticism for the refusal of York council to refuse planning permission for barriers to be a joke. If the barriers would ruin the station's ambience then what did stringing up OHLE do for the period feel back in the 80's when it was installed.

I have to say that if the railways are losing several hundred million quid a year to ticket fraud then surely investing in more ticket checking staff on trains and at stations is a cost effective measure. I really cant understand why on a long distance train the guard or TM is not on their feet constatntly checking tickets or at a minimum after major station stops.

 

[Mojo]

I have to say that if the railways are losing several hundred million quid a year to ticket fraud then surely investing in more ticket checking staff on trains and at stations is a cost effective measure. I really cant understand why on a long distance train the guard or TM is not on their feet constatntly checking tickets or at a minimum after major station stops.

ln my experience, they are, but on many occasions simply state "tickets from x" please. On one hand you can't subject a person travelling from Bristol to Leeds to six separate ticket inspections, plus two more on the stations but conversely when doing this it can be very easy to avoid payment.

When l travelled between Boston & New York a while back, l can't remember what happenned exactly, but the ticket examiner placed either a portion of the ticket or a specially coloured card into a slot on the overhead rack, presumably to indicate the ticket the passenger held.

 

[blacknight]

Do the ticket inspectors do anything to prevent this? For example they could have people at these stations marking all tickets of people boarding. That way when a customer arrived at Doncaster and their ticket wasn't marked they could be excessed.

Personnally I think every station with a manned ticket barrier but in this era of TOC's run by penny counters, they would be having panic attacks about costs involved.
For instance say statation is open from 0600-2400 then take into account lone working 18hoursx2 members of staff=36 manhoursxnumber of station halts on route=12x36manhours@8.00 an hour over a year means ticket revenue from these halts on route must exceed over 1.25 million GBP to make any profit after cost of wages is taken into account, not easy on 80p return fare from Bentley. Easy to see why BR went for open stations policy.
Now with the introduction of automated gates which by law have to be manned means TTI's who could have targeted different station halts along the route are now static tethered to automated gatelines:roll:.

 

[jon0844]

There are many hidden benefits of protecting the railway than just revenue. Staffing stations encourages more people to travel as they feel safer and it can reduce vandalism as some people will not travel if they have to buy a ticket.

I am sure there are many more reasons.

Too many people do some simple maths and come to the wrong conclusions.

 

[Lampshade]

I think ticket gates are a necessity - of course you must have someone to work the barrier also in case of problems. The LU system is accepted by all travellers as a matter of course why should Network Rail be any different. I think if barriers were installed at all major stations then it would soon be second nature to most travellers to use them.

On the underground they work, it would be highly impractical to have manual checks when there are around 200 people going each way every 5 minutes.

I have extreme scepticism for the refusal of York council to refuse planning permission for barriers to be a joke. If the barriers would ruin the station's ambience then what did stringing up OHLE do for the period feel back in the 80's when it was installed.

OHLE was a necessity; ticket barriers on the other hand just restrict movement. York station is a tourist attraction in itself and people go just for a coffee or to look around the building. Also, barriers would stop families/friends accessing the platforms to see off loved ones. If barriers were to go up, yes the minimum fare from the next station would be protected, but businesses in the station would lose revenue because it's not just passengers that fancy a coffee etc. I for one do not like being processed through a ticket barrier, I find them to be intimidating and shows a lack of trust on the part of the train operating company as it means all passengers are ‘guilty (of fare dodging) until proven innocent’ as it were, which is not British.

 

[monkey]

Also, barriers would stop families/friends accessing the platforms to see off loved ones. If barriers were to go up, yes the minimum fare from the next station would be protected, but businesses in the station would lose revenue because it's not just passengers that fancy a coffee etc. I for one do not like being processed through a ticket barrier, I find them to be intimidating and shows a lack of trust on the part of the train operating company as it means all passengers are ‘guilty (of fare dodging) until proven innocent’ as it were, which is not British.

...yeah that's the main reason I hate them. I dread them introducing them at newcastle. I think the vast majority are honest and buy a ticket. those who don't are more than likely to be court out on ticket inspection on board...

 

[PTF62]

The annoying thing I find with ticket barriers is when you know that the odds are that the barrier won't take the ticket without going "seek assistance", so you go straight to the RPI and hand over your ticket they get awfully grumpy and without looking at it tell you to put it in the barrier, only for it to display "seek assistance".

Yes I know that when I break my journey at Stevenage it won't take my day return ticket, it never has and probably never will, so why don't you. And if you have deliberately set the barriers not to take NSE tickets, like you always do, then don't get surprised that when I have a NSE ticket I am not going to waste my time putting it in the machine first and getting it rejected like it always is.

 

[jon0844]

You should speak to FCC and see if they can resolve any specific acceptance issues, although bear in mind that if you do break your journey, you'll have to wait a set time before being accepted back through (to stop tickets being passed on to someone else). It is set for quite a long time (about 30 minutes at Potters Bar, although I was told by FCC that they'd reconfigure it to 15 minutes - but I've never tested it). I think they're individually programmed (per gateline), so changing Potters Bar may not mean Stevenage is done and so on.

In today's society, I think ticket gates are a sad necessity because too many people were getting caught by random checks. The gates may not actually catch that many people, but that's more likely because simply having them is forcing most people to, reluctantly, buy a ticket.

It's naive to think that people will all buy a ticket because they're supposed to. In my experience, especially in the evenings, the thought is that you don't buy a ticket because there's very little chance of being caught - and they're right. Everyone always has a story too, and while any RPI can see through them, many will still let people through as they're working alone and aren't allowed to get involved with the types of people that have no intention of paying.

Perhaps when people become a bit more honest, and start to believe that you abide by the law even if there's little chance of being caught simply because it IS the law (and I mean everything, not buying a train ticket) then maybe we can get rid of all gatelines and even ticket checks. I doubt that will happen in our lifetime though, as the 'British way' doesn't exist anymore.

 

[Lampshade]

Big rant coming up, this is my opinion, no offence to anyone intended.

I understand the reasoning behind ticket barriers, and they are a good idea at suburban commuter stations, like SWT have done. However they are an absolute menace at mainline stations, the set up at Kings Cross is perfect, commuter platforms with barriers and intercity platforms (where passengers will have their ticket checks en route) without barriers. I for one am much more concerned with crime on board trains and find a human presence on board to be much more reassuring than an expensive metal contraption at the end of the journey.

Imagine if a packed northbound HST arrived at the same time as a packed southbound HST and half the people get off each, that's around 600 people - dangerous?

TOCs that are putting these barriers in clearly have no idea of the problems they cause when passengers arrive with luggage or pushchairs. I think ticket barriers should be a last resort, EMT and NXEC at Sheffield and York respectively have just plucked statistics out of the air to support their case and it's wrong, ticket barriers should only be installed if there is enough research and evidence to suggest that there is no alternative.

We are passengers, we don't get barriers at the bus station so why should we get barriers at the railway station? We want to travel, not be processed and squeezed for every penny just because a TOC has overbid for its franchise.

Perhaps when people become a bit more honest, and start to believe that you abide by the law even if there's little chance of being caught simply because it IS the law (and I mean everything, not buying a train ticket) then maybe we can get rid of all gatelines and even ticket checks. I doubt that will happen in our lifetime though, as the 'British way' doesn't exist anymore.

If TOCs have that attitude then all they're going to do is deter people from travelling by train. I, and I assume many, will not tolerate being tarred with the same brush as a tiny minority of numpties who think they can bunk a free trip. The way you've described it is like we're all primary school pupils being banned from taking sweets for break because one or two people are littering.

People who are for barriers, it's the same as having the attitude towards ID cards (the proposed government ones) "I don't mind ID cards because I've got nothing to hide". That's not the point, why should people have them in the first place?

 

[blacknight]

Big rant coming up, this is my opinion, no offence to anyone intended.

I understand the reasoning behind ticket barriers, and they are a good idea at suburban commuter stations, like SWT have done. However they are an absolute menace at mainline stations, the set up at Kings Cross is perfect, commuter platforms with barriers and intercity platforms (where passengers will have their ticket checks en route) without barriers. I for one am much more concerned with crime on board trains and find a human presence on board to be much more reassuring than an expensive metal contraption at the end of the journey.

Imagine if a packed northbound HST arrived at the same time as a packed southbound HST and half the people get off each, that's around 600 people - dangerous?

TOCs that are putting these barriers in clearly have no idea of the problems they cause when passengers arrive with luggage or pushchairs. I think ticket barriers should be a last resort, EMT and NXEC at Sheffield and York respectively have just plucked statistics out of the air to support their case and it's wrong, ticket barriers should only be installed if there is enough research and evidence to suggest that there is no alternative.

We are passengers, we don't get barriers at the bus station so why should we get barriers at the railway station? We want to travel, not be processed and squeezed for every penny just because a TOC has overbid for its franchise.

My view is automated gates at main line stations are an obstruction to the general travelling public that are self defeating for at peak times once queues form at gates & queue reaches set length then gates will be thrown open to ease congestion. Further gates do little to protect revenue from fare evasion as fare evaders are more likely to go over fence than through shiney new barriers.
In removing RPI from onboard to tethering them to automated gateline with one arm tied behind their backs as cannot "escort" ticketless person to ticket office that could be seen as form of arrest.
In my view automated gatelines are not compatable with intercity travel as many passengers travel with large items of luggage which will reduce passenger flow rate that TOC's quote. For instance 100 plus passengers alight from service & it will only take one passenger with oversized case & a bottleneck will be form as passenger as to reverse direction of travel. Would suggest if going on holidays to put yuor case in front of a 600mm kitchen unit to act as a Go-NoGo guage.
Also I dont think much thought as been given to disabled especially the lone blind passenger with guide dog, as even when not in use a gateline creates another obstruction to be navigated when passing through station late at night.

 

[PTF62]

the set up at Kings Cross is perfect,
...
Imagine if a packed northbound HST arrived at the same time as a packed southbound HST and half the people get off each, that's around 600 people - dangerous?

Which is the situation you had up until earlier this year, when the packed 8.00am arrival from Peterborough always arrived at platform 11, with another train timed to leave platform 10 at 8.05am.

So chaos every morning as the queues backed up from the ticket barriers (which despite the congestion were never "thrown open"), whilst passengers desperate to catch the 8.05 were fighting their way through the crowds in the opposite direction. How nobody fell under the 8.05 I will never know.

 

[daccer]

I think maybe we don't always give the TOC's credit for knowing their busineses and sometimes think that we know better than they do how to run what are complicated franchises.

I dont believe for one second a TOC would go to the expense and hassle of installing gates/barriers if there wasnt evidence that it does deter fraudulent travel. I know that ticket gates form a substantial part of Southern's attempts to increase revenue in the new franchise. Gates will never be 100% effectuve but I think they are not designed to deter the hardened fair evader. I think they are more a deterrent to those who maybe travel expecting to buy a ticket on the train or at their destination and who dont get round to doing it or who simply dont see a conductor en route. In other words the inadvertent fare dodger.

They will never be popular - we dont like any change especially one that smacks of big brother but I think they are here to stay and they will make their inexorable way across the network until it becomes impossible to travel without having to pass through one. I am sure for the bean counters at the TOC's this would be their idea of heaven!!

 

[jon0844]

I fail to see why most passengers would be angry about being forced to show a ticket. I get more angry when I've bought a ticket and nobody cares to check at any point - and most people I've been with that aren't checked either say one thing; "I don't know why I bothered to buy a ticket".

Clearly the fact you NEED a ticket is not important to most people when the opportunity is there, which is a sad reflection on life in general - as I said, it goes way beyond a train ticket!

I also think another thing that riles passengers who have bought tickets is seeing all of those people that didn't buy one - making you, once again, question why you bothered to do the right thing.

As society falls apart, more people start to go with the flow.

Believe me, I'd love to see a return to the glory days (if they ever really existed?) where stations are all open - but can anyone seriously see that happening, at least before there's some form of revolution!!

All said and done, I certainly would agree that gatelines need to be sufficient to cope with the traffic flows - and some implementations have been awful. King's Cross was a problem, and that will eventually be gated for ALL platforms, but I hope they'll have many, many more gates.

Not only are more gates needed, but more wide gates to allow through bikes, prams, luggage etc.

Investment in a smart card system, similar to Oyster, for the whole rail network would also speed up the use of gates too. Few people use paper tickets on the underground, making the gates pretty much fault free.

 

[Lampshade]

It's not having my ticket checked that gets my goat, in fact I welcome it - by a human.

Humans are not restrictive by nature, ticket barriers are restrictive by design; they might do the job but it's the restriction that comes with them that makes me fiercely opposed to them. They keep out/catch fare a few fare evaders but they also stop enthuisasts and loved ones/families, people who have a genuinely harmless reason for wanting access to the platforms. Believe me, as long as there is breath in my body, ticket barriers will not go up at my local station.

Of course, if it was possible to buy a platform ticket, it wouldn't be such a problem, but they seem impossible to obtain.

 

[jon0844]

I think the solution is to get easier access to platform tickets, not to get rid of gates - which can be made to work fine with a little effort and proper planning!

 

[monkey]

^^yeah perhaps. it annoys me I can't say goodbye properly to loved ones at gated stations...

 

[krus_aragon]

Of course, if it was possible to buy a platform ticket, it wouldn't be such a problem, but they seem impossible to obtain.

I managed to persuade a fellow at the Kings Cross ticket office to sell one: sadly it didn't operate the barriers!