Ticket barrier question

[markymark2000]

I'm interested to know, what are the rules for staffing ticket barriers.
Do you need staff physically on the barrier at all times or can you have staff in the ticket office control and monitor the barriers? I have seen one or two examples of remote working but that is still controlled by someone on the other gateline.

I ask because there are some stations where the latter would be very useful. Some very busy stations have ticket offices which are open the majority of the time but no ticket barriers.
Some examples I can think of are Northwich, Knutsford and Birkenhead Central.

If you have to have staff on the barriers at all time, do you think that is reasonable or do you think it should be changed for slight remote working from the ticket office in less busy stations where they can't sustain paying a member of staff to sit on the gate? This could be an easy way to reduce fare evasion without the cost of having someone sat on the gate all day and using existing staff which can be underused. I would like to state I don't agree with allowing MtoGo shops or similar to have control over ticket gates because they have more people to deal with, it should be a ticket office as they can be quiet at times but some companies have staff there because of contractual agreements or just generally wanting to keep a station staffed. At ticket office peak times, someone should be dedicated to the gate for safety and to deal with people with passes which don't work.

 

[plugwash]

I don't know what the current rules say, but my personal opinion is that remote monitoring of gatelines is an awful idea until/unless the level of false-rejects can be massively reduced. Even with staff dedicated to manning the barriers it can sometimes be difficult to get their attention, especially if you did not anticipate the rejection.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know what the current rules say, but my personal opinion is that remote monitoring of gatelines is an awful idea until/unless the level of false-rejects can be massively reduced. Even with staff dedicated to manning the barriers it can sometimes be difficult to get their attention, especially if you did not anticipate the rejection.

The problem with remote monitoring is that often there *isn't* any remote monitoring. There's a button, but on both occasions I've had cause to press it nobody has answered and I have just had to barge the barrier - and when I did nothing whatsoever was done about it.

 

[JonathanH]

There are some places where this has been done well - Beaconsfield is the one that springs to mind - two ticket office windows - one inside and one outside the barrier line - at less busy times one member of staff is all that is needed to staff both the ticket office and the gates.

One problem with remote gates is that they can be barged open, people tailgate or people press the emergency button to open them.

 

[JonathanH]

The problem with remote monitoring is that often there *isn't* any remote monitoring. There's a button, but on both occasions I've had cause to press it nobody has answered and I have just had to barge the barrier - and when I did nothing whatsoever was done about it.

Yes, although in theory a persistent offender could be videoed and the resulting recordings used as evidence when they finally meet a revenue inspector.

If TOCs were serious about revenue protection the gates should really be staffed by proper revenue inspectors with the powers to prosecute people who have invalid tickets.

 

[plugwash]

Which brings us back to the problem of barriers rejecting legitimate tickets. Are people supposed to keep every rail ticket they have ever used as evidence for their defense? how are they supposed to do that when some barriers eat tickets?

 

[Dr Hoo]

A typical scenario is that a small station with two platforms has a barrier line on both sides connecting with adjacent streets, with a footbridge or subway in between. Depending on train lengths and numbers of passengers, an arriving train will deposit enough people to have some arriving at both barrier lines simultaneously depending on which side they want to exit the station. Given the ridiculously high 'refusal rate', several folk on both sides will Seek Assistance. By definition while a single member of staff is dealing with a trapped passenger on one side (either in person or via help point/video link) they are 'ignoring' someone else on the other.

With departing trains it is even worse. Passengers with pre-purchased tickets (or sometimes even ones freshly purchased from a ticket machine at the station!) are again often being 'refused' admission on both sides as they arrive at the station with little time to spare. In this case the refusee on the 'unlucky' side can easily end up missing their train and suffering an immediate half hour delay or worse with no real recourse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, although in theory a persistent offender could be videoed and the resulting recordings used as evidence when they finally meet a revenue inspector.

If TOCs were serious about revenue protection the gates should really be staffed by proper revenue inspectors with the powers to prosecute people who have invalid tickets.

For the record, both times I have done this I have held a valid ticket but with a problem with the encoding meaning it didn't open the barrier. It's technically a Byelaw breach, but not one I would expect to be prosecuted given that the only reason I did it was the TOC's failure to provide the required remote monitoring of their barrier line.

 

[AlbertBeale]

When ticket gates were installed at London Underground stations, fire and other emergency regulations required that there were staff more or less alongside to open them in an emergency (or indeed if a ticket didn't work properly and trapped someone in the station), which rather messed up at least part of the idea of saving on ticket line staff. One station I used fairly often, which wasn't that busy, often had no-one on the ticket line (nor indeed within sight of it), with all the gates in the locked position. I checked with someone at the London Fire Service who confirmed that wasn't allowed, and suggested I'd be within my rights to press the emergency plunger in the console somewhere near the "inside" of the gate line, so as to release all the gates. He also told me that if this ever did result in the fire brigade turning out, they'd give the station staff a b********g for leaving a passenger in the situation where they needed to do that.

After I had indeed pressed the plunger on a a couple of occasions when there was no-one around (in one instance it was genuinely needed because someone had a messed-up ticket and they couldn't get through the gates) the staff there were either augmented (or told not to spend all their time in the "back office") and the gate line has never been shut without staff in attendance ever since.

 

[Hadders]

I believe the regulations are different at stations that are underground compared to stations at ground level.

If TOCs were serious about revenue protection the gates should really be staffed by proper revenue inspectors with the powers to prosecute people who have invalid tickets.

How much would it cost to do this compared to the revenue lost? Would this the best use of resource?

 

[Bletchleyite]

When ticket gates were installed at London Underground stations, fire and other emergency regulations required that there were staff more or less alongside to open them in an emergency (or indeed if a ticket didn't work properly and trapped someone in the station), which rather messed up at least part of the idea of saving on ticket line staff. One station I used fairly often, which wasn't that busy, often had no-one on the ticket line (nor indeed within sight of it), with all the gates in the locked position. I checked with someone at the London Fire Service who confirmed that wasn't allowed, and suggested I'd be within my rights to press the emergency plunger in the console somewhere near the "inside" of the gate line, so as to release all the gates. He also told me that if this ever did result in the fire brigade turning out, they'd give the station staff a b********g for leaving a passenger in the situation where they needed to do that.

After I had indeed pressed the plunger on a a couple of occasions when there was no-one around (in one instance it was genuinely needed because someone had a messed-up ticket and they couldn't get through the gates) the staff there were either augmented (or told not to spend all their time in the "back office") and the gate line has never been shut without staff in attendance ever since.

One of my two was at a LU station and the emergency plunger was broken.

 

[Kendalian]

Happened to me a few times. Damned annoying as it makes it look like you're using an invalid ticket

From memory, 2 separate occasions at Leeds (both out and in) when using a North West Rover ticket. Display showed "not valid at this station" or suchlike, which is false.

Chalfont & Latimer on LUL. Swallowed one day travelcard and did not open the barriers. Thankfully it was my last station of the day. No sign of any staff so had to give the barrier a real shove to open it.

Manchester Victoria on a Saturday last September. I got through fine with season ticket, but wife's day return from Buckshaw rejected. It was one of the "cheaper" Saturday tickets so perhaps that was the problem. Should not have happened though....ticket was bought from the office at Buckshaw.

 

[Spartacus]

Dewsbury has a similar remote one on the footbridge on the Leeds bound platform which in effect controls access to the Huddersfield platform from that side, as well as the lift, is is rarely manned, people usually resprt to shouting down to the staff on the platform. That's what it's actually closed, there's times when the platform barriers have been active and closed and this one's been open. What's bad is that if the barriers on both platforms had been moved to control the platform side of the lifts rather than the ticket office/machine side there'd be no remote control barrier, no difficulty in accessing the shop, which has found itself platform side of the barriers, so inaccesible to passing trade and offputting for passengers using the other platform, and there'd be no chance of people jumping barriers and fences out of sight to access the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I'm surprised at is that Birmingham New St's multiple sets of barriers aren't all remotely monitored so they can remain in use at all times. As things stand I don't think I've ever seen a situation where all sets were in use at the same time, which means it's really rather easy to get round them if you were so minded.

 

[markymark2000]

When I said remote gates, I didn't mean things like them being quite far off opposite side of the station, I mean next to the ticket office but the controls for the gate are inside the ticket office and staff inside the office rather than on the gateline. The ticket office staff then go to one window for excess fares and deal with issues or they can go to the other window to sell passengers wanting to enter tickets. Similar to Beaconsfield mentioned below (which I didn't know had this arrangement).

There are some places where this has been done well - Beaconsfield is the one that springs to mind - two ticket office windows - one inside and one outside the barrier line - at less busy times one member of staff is all that is needed to staff both the ticket office and the gates.

One problem with remote gates is that they can be barged open, people tailgate or people press the emergency button to open them.

For as long as fares are charged, people will fare evade. At least if barriers are in place and the staff get to see the people tailgating or pressing the emergency button etc, they can alert revenue protection. Northwich or Knutsford have Revenue protection quite often at peak times. If this was replaced by barriers, it would free up staff to be used elsewhere and perhaps revenue can be on site fortnightly with tip offs rather than weekly and just hoping to catch people.

 

[Ian Hardy]

All Line Rail Rovers work very few barriers and it very annoying when people who have tickets that will work the barriers decide to use the staffed barrier to exit the station instead (Marylebone and St Pancras EMR platforms seem to be the worst for that).

Also barrier staff can set the barriers to reject any ticket bought with a railcard so that they can physically check that the person actually holds the relevant railcard.

I have also had a problem at Glasgow Queen Street when I had purchased on Off Peak Day Return to Perth (which is valid after 08:00) but the barriers are set to reject any Off Peak tickets until after 09:15 because that is the time that most of those types of ticket are barred until (e.g. Off Peak Day Returns GLQ to Stirling are not valid until after 09:15).

 

[Hadders]

When I said remote gates, I didn't mean things like them being quite far off opposite side of the station, I mean next to the ticket office but the controls for the gate are inside the ticket office and staff inside the office rather than on the gateline.

Stations like Enfield Chase have this set up.

 

[Esker-pades]

All Line Rail Rovers work very few barriers and it very annoying when people who have tickets that will work the barriers decide to use the staffed barrier to exit the station instead (Marylebone and St Pancras EMR platforms seem to be the worst for that).

Also barrier staff can set the barriers to reject any ticket bought with a railcard so that they can physically check that the person actually holds the relevant railcard.

I have also had a problem at Glasgow Queen Street when I had purchased on Off Peak Day Return to Perth (which is valid after 08:00) but the barriers are set to reject any Off Peak tickets until after 09:15 because that is the time that most of those types of ticket are barred until (e.g. Off Peak Day Returns GLQ to Stirling are not valid until after 09:15).

Once my ALR was swallowed by the barriers in Inverness. It was 2 days old.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

As bad as our ticket gates can be I can assure you they ain't that bad. Having staff monitoring them is however essential IMO.

When I lived in Marseille the metro barriers were never monitored and I once nearly had a fight for refusing to let someone tailgate me in!