Ticket Advice

[lasarrr]

I know there are a lot of these threads but here's another one

traveling to Birmingham Snow hill.

I usually Purchase a ticket on my card - There are occasions where my card does not work on the machine and i pay by cash. On this occasion i had no cash. My card works at most other stations. Just my starting one is always hit and miss (the hawthorns). If i cant, i usually explain this at Snow hill and pay before the barrier as i Need a return anyway. On this occasion There was an inspector who thought i was trying to avoid paying. I explained him my situation but he didn't believe me and tried to give me a fine instead of letting me pay. I admittedly got frustrated because it was out of my control. I showed him my old tickets that i had to prove i pay, which are all from the same station at the same time. In my frustration i gave false details about my address and name initially. to which was found out and then in turn i gave my actual details.

I have been reading online and if i had just given my original details i may have just received a fine, but cos of my frustration it may now lead to prosecution which is something i need to avoid.

The inspector gave me a caution and questioned me, i provided all the answers and made sure i made it clear that i intended to pay.

I dont mind paying the fine, what are the chances of an out of court settlement? and how bad are things looking for me

 

[455driver]

If you had provided the correct details straight away then it was quite likely, the fact you got frustrated* and provided false details before being caught out reduces the chance but it is still a possiblilty.

You will be sent a letter asking you for your version of events before the Company decide what to do.

If you know your card is hit and miss at your regular station why dont you just ensure you have enough cash on you and save yourselof the aggro?

* Probably means you were a stroppy tw+t!

Edit-
A fine can only be imposed by a court so I wouldnt say that bit in the letter unless you have a nice suit and dont mind saying "yes ma lud" a lot!

 

[lasarrr]

I normally do have the cash, just one of those days. I prefer paying on my card so i can manage my finances better.

I have drafted the below letter in preparation, and have copied a range of tickets for the month in which i have all paid by card.



Dear sir/madam
The events are as below
• Travelling between Smethwick and Birmingham. (The hawthorns and Snowhill) on the 30th at approximately 8:30am-9:00am
• Unable to purchase ticket because the card facilities do not always work with my Card. This has been a regular issue and usually I have cash to compensate to purchase a ticket.
• My intent was to purchase a return ticket at my earliest convenience. I am usually given the opportunity at the station or on the train itself.
• I was on route to paying for my ticket at the office when I was stopped and interrogated by the officer.
• I had explained this to the Inspector; I had informed him I had intended to pay the price of the ticket at the barriers. And I usually do pay on my card and the issue with my card at the Hawthorns

I always pay for a ticket, I have enclosed tickets I have bought in the past in the time period to show the following 1. That I normally pay with my card and 2. That I Pay. As you can see I either travel between The hawthorns and Snow hill or Smethwick Rolfe Street and New Street (as I work in the Town Centre). The card facilities work perfectly with my card at Rolfe street, but not at hawthorns.
It is not a case that I attempted to evade payment, I had the intention to purchase the tickets.
I appreciate that this has caused a lot of issues for both parties, and appreciate that I should ensure that card facilities are working properly before travelling. To which I am deeply sorry. I am more than willing to pay the fare, and any additional administrative costs to ensure that this issue goes no further.

Kind Regards

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Yes, giving false details will not help your case. What would the judge think if this went to court?

 

[Chapeltom]

Yes, giving false details will not help your case. What would the judge think if this went to court?

Judge? A ticketing offence would seen in front of three magistrates at a magistrates court. Obviously were here on the forum to avoid that becoming a possibility and obtaining an out of court settlement for the poster. One of the great achievements of this forum is the success stories.

 

[Flamingo]

Judge? A ticketing offence would seen in front of three magistrates at a magistrates court. Obviously were here on the forum to avoid that becoming a possibility and obtaining an out of court settlement for the poster. One of the great achievements of this forum is the success stories.

Speak for yourself. I would view the forum as (by and large) giving impartial advice, not as a place fare-dodgers can come to so they can minimise their actions, and an out-of-court settlement is not appropriate in every case.

 

[lasarrr]

As i mentioned, its not a case that i dont pay...i always pay. there are barriers at the station which i cant get past without a ticket

If i offer about £200 to settle out of court will they take it. If i get a conviction there is a very strong chance i could lose my job and livelihood

 

[MyFriendMary]

Especially not, in my view, a case where false details have been given. That's pretty much straight to a Regulation of the Railways case unless you're lucky.



I'd drop the use of the word interrogated, you weren't exactly tortured for the information, and there is also no inclusion of your reason for giving false details initially.



While the inclusion of the tickets is a good touch, and could sway it in your favour, if it has been noted you gave false details to the prosecution department, it might be a whole lot trickier to seem like an innocently caught out individual

 

[lasarrr]

It was stupid for me to lie. I know

I really dont want this to go to court, WHen they do get back to me should i suggest that be willing to pay an out of court settlement of a sizeable amount (£250) which would be more than what they would get in court anyway.

 

[yorkie]

If i offer about £200 to settle out of court will they take it.

We can't answer that. It's up to the Train Company. I've known amounts varying from £20 (for a one-off minor offence with LM) up to a 4-figure sum (where previous incidents were suspected, with Greater Anglia) with cases mentioned on this forum, and even a 5-figure sum was agreed in one famous case where evasion was suspected over a long period of time.

They could refuse a settlement at any price, but as a private company with a duty to maximise profits, I suspect they'll have their price, but that would be entirely their choice.

 

[bb21]

The ironic thing is that had you offered your correct details they may well drop the matter once you give your side of the story. We have seen this before with other punters. Staff at prosecution departments are reasonable people, contrary to popular belief.

As yorkie said, unfortunately we cannot tell you what they would accept in exchange for dropping a case as it is now a more serious Section 5.3(c) offence. What I can say is that if this were your first offence, chances are that if you show remorse and regret in your response to their letters, they would take a lenient approach and drop the case for a n administrative penalty of probably a low three-figure sum. There is no guarantee though however there is good hope.

 

[455driver]

Speak for yourself. I would view the forum as (by and large) giving impartial advice, not as a place fare-dodgers can come to so they can minimise their actions, and an out-of-court settlement is not appropriate in every case.

Although sometimes I do wonder!

Note, not sure whether relevant to the OP as not enough detail is being proffered, again.

 

[lasarrr]

Just as an update to everyone.

They sent a letter asking what had happened. I explained my situation, and included near enough a months worth of train tickets i had purchased that month just to show i wasnt an evader. They decided not to prosecute, but are asking for me to cover admin fees of £95 which i think is pretty unfair, but for the sake of ending this i am paying it.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Just as an update to everyone.

They sent a letter asking what had happened. I explained my situation, and included near enough a months worth of train tickets i had purchased that month just to show i wasnt an evader. They decided not to prosecute, but are asking for me to cover admin fees of £95 which i think is pretty unfair, but for the sake of ending this i am paying it.

Considering you were going to offer £200 to settle, less than half of that is very reasonable indeed!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

They decided not to prosecute, but are asking for me to cover admin fees of £95 which i think is pretty unfair, but for the sake of ending this i am paying it.

Under the circumstances, which include lying about your identity, I think this is a very reasonable outcome. It looks like a realistic assessment of costs incurred by your incident.

I don't find it remotely 'unfair', however, if you do, then you are under no obligation to accept the offer and are quite entitled to let your local Magistrates decide the matter for you.
If you do, then I have my own opinion on how the Magistrates would view you when they are presented wih the evidence of your false statement; I wouldn't advise anyone putting themselves in that position where a £95 settlement of costs is on the table.

 

[neilmc]

Basically the train operating company got a nice little earner from their failure to provide adequate ticket purchasing facilities but this seems to be par for the course and there's no appetite for the industry to deal with it as long as this "pay the costs scam" brings in revenue.

The big problem was giving false personal details which compounded the issue and then makes you indisputably guilty of an offence, so when that's put into the mix you've probably got away lightly, the consequences could have been much more serious so if it were me I'd grind my teeth but take the offer.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Basically the train operating company got a nice little earner from their failure to provide adequate ticket purchasing facilities but this seems to be par for the course and there's no appetite for the industry to deal with it as long as this "pay the costs scam" brings in revenue.

The big problem was giving false personal details which compounded the issue and then makes you indisputably guilty of an offence, so when that's put into the mix you've probably got away lightly, the consequences could have been much more serious so if it were me I'd grind my teeth but take the offer.

Sorry, that's rubbish. The machines at Snow Hill accept cash. If the customer's card was refused there is a very acceptable alternative. If they don't have cash, they are close enough to cashpoint to get it.


EDIT reading it again, I checked on the Hawthorns station. There is a PERTIS machine there. That means that as little as 5p would've avoided the situation entirely.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I welcome informed points of view on this forum, but I find this post to be a grotesque perversion of a few facts plus some presumptions for no apparent purpose other than to fabricate an unjustified attack on the Company:-

Basically the train operating company got a nice little earner from their failure to provide adequate ticket purchasing facilities but this seems to be par for the course and there's no appetite for the industry to deal with it as long as this "pay the costs scam" brings in revenue.

Unnacceptable.

 

[lasarrr]

Sorry, that's rubbish. The machines at Snow Hill accept cash. If the customer's card was refused there is a very acceptable alternative. If they don't have cash, they are close enough to cashpoint to get it.


EDIT reading it again, I checked on the Hawthorns station. There is a PERTIS machine there. That means that as little as 5p would've avoided the situation entirely.

i assume the PERITS machine is the one that give yous a permit to travel?

That machine is never on, even if i wanted i wouldnt be able to use. and Hawthorns is no where near any cash points.

I am going to pay it, Just feel a bit like i got sh*fted. As i mentioned, im a regular train user, and i showed evidence of all the tickets i could find that i hadnt thrown out.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . . Just feel a bit like i got sh*fted. As i mentioned, im a regular train user, . . . . .

I don't doubt that for a moment. But I'm not sure that you fully appreciate the severity of the matter which you created when you lied about your identity. You committed a Criminal Offence in so doing, and one with no real prospect of any defence.

I strongly urge you to abandon any sense of injustice or high moral ground, and forget about your excuse of 'frustration'. Railway passengers are successfully prosecuted every week after having given a false name or address, so, having been offered a settlement way below the fine that would have been imposed by a Court, I see you as a very lucky person. I just hope you can see it the same way too.

Having said that, expect that the Company's Revenue Protection team will have a note of your identity now, and if you do anything in the future as foolish as giving a false name or address, then you will not be so lucky a second time.

 

[Greenback]

Basically the train operating company got a nice little earner from their failure to provide adequate ticket purchasing facilities but this seems to be par for the course and there's no appetite for the industry to deal with it as long as this "pay the costs scam" brings in revenue.

The big problem was giving false personal details which compounded the issue and then makes you indisputably guilty of an offence, so when that's put into the mix you've probably got away lightly, the consequences could have been much more serious so if it were me I'd grind my teeth but take the offer.

That is complete nonsense and making such a post does not do you any credit.

OP, I'd also like to know why £95 is so unfair when you proposed offering £200 to avoid a prosecution?

 

[neilmc]

That is complete nonsense and making such a post does not do you any credit.

OP, I'd also like to know why £95 is so unfair when you proposed offering £200 to avoid a prosecution?

I stand by this. Many stations have no booking offices or limited opening hours, the ticket machines are clearly unreliable, and sometimes they are located in places which are not obvious, and often staff cannot get round the train to sell tickets. As long as TOCs (and my local operator Northern may well be the worst offender) can manage to extract a charge of their own invention as an alternative to prosecution for non-possession of a ticket, and do so on an industrial scale, there is no motivation to improve the situation. There are threads in this forum by the dozen which illustrate this, although I accept that in some cases the OP may be "trying it on".

On the last occasion that I boarded a train at a country station I had to look all around to see whether such a machine was concealed behind a hoarding or footbridge, then when the conductor failed to come round the train to sell tickets I was in a state of constant anxiety that I might have been challenged at my destination and accused of fare evasion.

Fortunately I don't live near a local train station so I only normally catch trains out of the city centre where there is always a manned ticket office so I always have a ticket in Greater Manchester otherwise it would be a real lottery. This is a shame as I actually prefer travelling by train but with the bus at least I know where I stand and there aren't any arcane regulations loaded against the customer who has to prove his case.

 

[Greenback]

I stand by this. Many stations have no booking offices or limited opening hours, the ticket machines are clearly unreliable, and sometimes they are located in places which are not obvious, and often staff cannot get round the train to sell tickets. As long as TOCs (and my local operator Northern may well be the worst offender) can manage to extract a charge of their own invention as an alternative to prosecution for non-possession of a ticket, and do so on an industrial scale, there is no motivation to improve the situation. There are threads in this forum by the dozen which illustrate this, although I accept that in some cases the OP may be "trying it on".

I accept that some TOC's can do a lot more when it comes to retailing. However, as you pointed out in the second paragraph this thread is dealing with one particular incident where false details were provided. Your initial remarks are unfounded.

On the last occasion that I boarded a train at a country station I had to look all around to see whether such a machine was concealed behind a hoarding or footbridge, then when the conductor failed to come round the train to sell tickets I was in a state of constant anxiety that I might have been challenged at my destination and accused of fare evasion.

In my experience TVM's are normally signed and visible. I am sure that if this were not the case at a station, front line staff would be aware and the chances of being penalised would be pretty low.

Fortunately I don't live near a local train station so I only normally catch trains out of the city centre where there is always a manned ticket office so I always have a ticket in Greater Manchester otherwise it would be a real lottery. This is a shame as I actually prefer travelling by train but with the bus at least I know where I stand and there aren't any arcane regulations loaded against the customer who has to prove his case.

There are literally thousands of occasions every day where discretion is shown and passengers given the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps reading this forum gives a skewed view of what the railway is like to travel on day to day. There is a problem with fare evasion, but despite what is often reported on here the vast majority of incidents don't result in any action being taken against a passenger. I have seen, and been involved myself, in many instances where a passenger has boarded a wrong train and been allowed to continue their journey, been overcarried and allowed to return, been allowed to travel on an earlier or later train than their ticket permitted, and been allowed to travel on a ticket that is invalid.

Of course, none of this gets reported.

I'm not saying that the railway is perfect, clearly mistakes are made and some passengers have been treated wrongly and unfairly. But it is completely wrong to say that TOC's are deliberately setting out to trap and scam passengers.

 

[bb21]

Put your sense of injustice behind you. You have no justification for providing false details. How do you expect that to be dealt with?

Re-read my previous post. This is entirely your own doing.

 

[cjmillsnun]

i assume the PERITS machine is the one that give yous a permit to travel?

That machine is never on, even if i wanted i wouldnt be able to use. and Hawthorns is no where near any cash points.

I am going to pay it, Just feel a bit like i got sh*fted. As i mentioned, im a regular train user, and i showed evidence of all the tickets i could find that i hadnt thrown out.

I bet there's one at Morrisons. 5 minute walk!