Ticket acceptance TPE cancellations?

[trainophile]

Does anyone know if East Midlands accept TPE tickets when there are cancellations?

I've just discovered that my rather convoluted (thank you Trainsplit!) Advance tickets journey includes a leg from Man Picc to Liv South Parkway on a TPE that starts from Cleethorpes.

As these services still seem to be particularly unreliable even by TPE standards, despite the OLR takeover, I was wondering whether if it is "cancelled due to a short notice change to the timetable" I could get on the EMT half an hour later, which would still be in time for my onward connection.

I know you're supposed to wait for the next train by the same operator, but being TPE there's no guarantee that that won't be cancelled too. The Northern one takes an hour whereas the EMT takes 40 minutes, which would make all the difference.

 

[yorkie]

Can you please post your full itinerary.

If your arrival time is crucial to you, and need to avoid a delay if at all possible, can you depart earlier?

If you are ever presented with an itinerary you have questions about, I would urge you to seek advice before booking (however with Trainsplit you can still get a refund within 2 hours, so if you only just booked it, you still have time to change your mind!)

 

[trainophile]

Right, brace yourself...

Depart Newcastle 10:01
Arrive Huddersfield 11:47
Depart " 11:54
Arrive MAN 12:38
Depart " 13:07
Arrive Liverpool S/P'way 13:49

with a view to getting the 14:43 to Birmingham (not booked yet).

 

[yorkie]

OK. What ticket(s) have been issued?

I would advise in future booking your whole journey from Newcastle to Birmingham on one booking. Making a journey on a combination of bookings is perfectly valid, but it can complicate things.

There is plenty of slack in that itinerary so I don't think you need to worry; if any train is cancelled, you have an automatic right to the next train of the relevant company, but any other company in a position to help should do so if this would avoid a connection being missed and/or avoid a lengthy delay.

Unless your arrival time in Birmingham is absolutely crucial, I would just take each leg as it comes, and not worry about it.

If your arrival time in Birmingham is crucial then you may want to obtain a refund (this will incur a £10 fee if you have not just booked it) and book your desired itinerary all the way through to Birmingham, requesting additional interchange time if you want to relax about connections.

Without knowing what your time constraints and any other requirements are, it's difficult to advise.

 

[trainophile]

It is fairly crucial actually, as I then intend to connect with the last Hereford train that will get me there in time for the last bus of the day to home. At the time of booking I hadn't decided which day to return to Hereford, but it makes sense to do it all in one bash although it will be a long day. I still have the option of not going to BHM/HFD at all that day. I may not even do it after all, but tickets for the weekend are so slow to appear that I was wanting to get on with sorting my plans out.

The ticket is actually a through one NCL-LPY but it's all timed connections. Thanks for replying, I'll give it some more thought. I was just wondering about the ticket acceptance aspect really, as I know Avanti accept TPE cancelled tickets but wasn't sure about any other operators.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2023 ==

It's not until the end of July.

 

[Watershed]

It is fairly crucial actually, as I then intend to connect with the last Hereford train that will get me there in time for the last bus of the day to home. At the time of booking I hadn't decided which day to return to Hereford, but it makes sense to do it all in one bash although it will be a long day. I still have the option of not going to BHM/HFD at all that day. I may not even do it after all, but tickets for the weekend are so slow to appear that I was wanting to get on with sorting my plans out.

The ticket is actually a through one NCL-LPY but it's all timed connections. Thanks for replying, I'll give it some more thought. I was just wondering about the ticket acceptance aspect really, as I know Avanti accept TPE cancelled tickets but wasn't sure about any other operators.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2023 ==

It's not until the end of July.

What is the cost of the ticket? This will let us determine the ticket's route (i.e. operator) restrictions.

Unfortunately, it looks like TPE no longer have blanket ticket acceptance in place with other operators in the event of cancellation. In most cases they are telling people to take the previous or next TPE service, or are arranging road transport.

It looks like the 14:43 from Liverpool South Parkway connects into the 16:10 towards Hereford at Crewe, arriving at 17:50. The next journey opportunity gets you into Hereford at 18:39, i.e. less than an hour later. This being the case, unfortunately you cannot rely on the PRO right to be re-routed if it looks like you would make it to Hereford at 18:39, as you need an anticipated delay of at least 61 minutes to qualify for that right.

 

[trainophile]

If I found out in the morning that the Cleethorpes-Lime Street train was cancelled I suppose I could justify staying on the NCL-LIV train rather than changing at Huddersfield? That might be a better way, if permitted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2023 ==

What is the cost of the ticket? This will let us determine the ticket's route (i.e. operator) restrictions.

£13.55 with railcard. Can't remember why I did it that way now, as it's only another 10p on the cheapest Advance tier for a through train to Liverpool. Also TPE.

Edit: £13.95. Sometimes I think I economise too much!

 

[Watershed]

If I found out in the morning that the Cleethorpes-Lime Street train was cancelled I suppose I could justify staying on the NCL-LIV train rather than changing at Huddersfield? That might be a better way, if permitted.

Yes, that would be permitted. Though of course there's no guarantee that your train from NCL wouldn't be (part) cancelled!

£13.55 with railcard. Can't remember why I did it that way now, as it's only another 10p on the cheapest Advance tier for a through train to Liverpool. Also TPE.

The good news is that the Advance costing £13.55 with Railcard is routed TPE & Connections. Therefore you are not restricted to TPE in the event of a cancellation/delay - you may take any operator to Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[trainophile]

For an extra £7.55 ticket (less than the £10 cancellation fee) I could stay on the original train from Huddersfield all the way to Lime Street, but that's against the rules as I'd be "stopping short" on my original ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jun 2023 ==

Yes, that would be permitted. Though of course there's no guarantee that your train from NCL wouldn't be (part) cancelled!


The good news is that the Advance costing £13.55 with Railcard is routed TPE & Connections. Therefore you are not restricted to TPE in the event of a cancellation/delay - you may take any operator to Liverpool South Parkway.

Oh that's all very promising. Thank you, I wouldn't have known that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Jun 2023 ==

Update - decided not to go back to Hereford on the same day. Would be too much with the early start (having to get Metro from Whitley Bay at about 09:00).

However just checked TPE Journey Plans out of curiosity and the situa has got worse not better. Six succ Newcastle to Liverpools cancelled today, it’s beyond a joke.

At what point might we expect things to start improving until OLR?

 

[yorkie]

Do you require any more assistance for this journey?

At what point might we expect things to start improving until OLR?

No-one really knows, but check out the other threads on the subject.

 

[trainophile]

Not at the current time thanks, but I’m tempted to re-book a totally different route and select “exclude TPE”. If only we still had Book with Confidence!

The only other thread on this topic that I’m aware of had been locked last time I checked.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I know you're supposed to wait for the next train by the same operator, but being TPE there's no guarantee that that won't be cancelled too. The Northern one takes an hour whereas the EMT takes 40 minutes, which would make all the difference.

I thought it was
- If within 1 hour you have to get that TOC's next train
- If you'd be delayed more than an hour you can get anything?
(please confirm since I help friends with travel info sometimes)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought it was
- If within 1 hour you have to get that TOC's next train
- If you'd be delayed more than an hour you can get anything?
(please confirm since I help friends with travel info sometimes)

If the delay is or is expected to be more than an hour, the EU directive adopted by the UK requires the original operator to "re-route" you. You have to ask them to arrange this for you, however, you cannot simply do it yourself. Unfortunately, TOCs seem to deny this right so you are stuck - that they don't fulfil it doesn't give the right to board another operator's train unilaterally.

The latest directive allows for "self-rerouteing" after a longer delay (100 minutes?) - however it's yet to be seen if the UK will adopt it or not.

What this comes down to is that the best advice is to take the original TOC's train if this is a possibility, and if not ask staff if another TOC can be used, perhaps mentioning the word "re-route" and the relevant Directive number (does anyone know it?) but don't expect this to achieve anything unless you're stranded overnight or for a very long period.

 

[yorkie]

Not at the current time thanks, but I’m tempted to re-book a totally different route and select “exclude TPE”. If only we still had Book with Confidence’

Book with Confidence allowed you to cancel for any reason of your choosing; it did not provide any additional rights in the case of a train being delayed/cancelled.

 

[trainophile]

Book with Confidence allowed you to cancel for any reason of your choosing; it did not provide any additional rights in the case of a train being delayed/cancelled.

No but I could have got a refund for my (mostly) TPE ticket and booked on Northern instead, who still seem to have the edge on reliability. Or perhaps not, as didn't BwC involve booking an identical journey for another day/time? Sorry it's been a while and I can't remember now. Anyway never mind, perhaps one day we will be able to rely on the railways again.

 

[XAM2175]

... the relevant Directive number (does anyone know it?) ...

EC1371 isn't quite as pithy as EC261, sadly

 

[Watershed]

If the delay is or is expected to be more than an hour, the EU directive adopted by the UK

It's an EU Regulation, so it took effect directly without needing to be adopted

That being said, the UK maintained an opt-out which disapplied the Regulation to domestic services until December 2019. The PRO then took effect for domestic trains.

requires the original operator to "re-route" you. You have to ask them to arrange this for you, however, you cannot simply do it yourself. Unfortunately, TOCs seem to deny this right so you are stuck - that they don't fulfil it doesn't give the right to board another operator's train unilaterally.

The latest directive allows for "self-rerouteing" after a longer delay (100 minutes?) - however it's yet to be seen if the UK will adopt it or not.

It seems very unlikely that the UK will introduce an equivalent Regulation. In several respects it's worse for passengers - so that's not necessarily bad news.

For instance, in order to "even the playing field" (i.e. reduce passenger rights), operators are no longer required to pay delay compensation in "exceptional circumstances". Of course, as EU261 has proven, that will inevitably lead to most operators denying claims by default, thus requiring people to take them to Court to get what they're entitled to.

Furthermore, the right to self-re-routing only kicks in 100 minutes after the train should have left or the connection was missed. That's an excessively long waiting period; waiting that long before making other arrangements could seriously increase the resultant delay. Where an operator has refused to re-route passengers (as happens very commonly here in the UK), the legislation should make it crystal clear that this also gives rise to a right to recover reasonable costs - without having to wait 100 minutes.

Though the new Regulation doesn't explicity say that costs can't be recovered if you self-re-route after waiting for less than 100 minutes, unscrupulous operators will no doubt take this change as a green light for rejecting claims for re-routing costs in such cases - even if the delay was anticipated to be an hour or more.

What this comes down to is that the best advice is to take the original TOC's train if this is a possibility, and if not ask staff if another TOC can be used, perhaps mentioning the word "re-route" and the relevant Directive number (does anyone know it?) but don't expect this to achieve anything unless you're stranded overnight or for a very long period.

It's not necessary to quote the actual Regulation number (1371/2007, incidentally) for your request to take legal effect; mentioning the fact you're asking to be re-routed is sufficient. As you say, at the moment you are highly likely to have your request wrongly refused, and so you need to decide whether you're willing to pay for a new ticket etc. out of pocket, in the hope that the operator doesn't make you take them to Court to get what you're owed.

 

[ricoblade]

I heard both EMR and TPE cancellations/delays announced as “being investigated” at Sheffield today.

I’ve never heard that excuse before.

 

[Jan Mayen]

It's routine in GTR land. Presumably means they haven't decided who is at fault.

 

[ricoblade]

It's routine in GTR land. Presumably means they haven't decided who is at fault.

Interesting but when I boarded the late TPE at Sheffield, the Conductor said it was due to waiting a unit off the depot at Piccadilly (it had been cancelled from Lime St), so clearly b****x as I thought!