Ticket acceptance during disruption

[trainophile]

As per yesterday's issues across a lot of the network, is it fairly safe to assume that there will be blanket ticket acceptance on those trains that ARE running?

I asked at Hull gateline whether I could board a TPE with a Northern Advance for a cancelled train, and was told to "ask the guard". I did attempt to do so, but a six coach train with a packed platform of people waiting to board made that fairly impossible. I finally spotted a guy in a shirt with TPE on it and asked him where the guard was, whereupon he asked me why and I told him I needed permission to board this train as my Northern was cancelled - the guy (who I'm pretty sure was probably a cleaner as he had a large bin bag, and apart from the logo'd shirt no other uniform) said "oh you'll be better on this one" and waved me to get on.

As it was two minutes to departure time and still no sign of a guard I did as indicated, and was nervous the whole way to Leeds in case there was a ticket check, especially as immediately on departure there was the "you need a valid ticket to board this train" announcement. To my relief there was no ticket check, and I was subsequently permitted by a fully uniformed TPE staff member on the platform at Leeds to board the Liverpool train to Man Vic even though my ticket was for Northern, again just waved on with no questions asked other than where I was going.

So it got me wondering, in severe disruption is it general policy to waive ticket restrictions (so long as people actually have one), and just get people where they need to go?

Telling someone to ask the guard on a six, nine or eleven coach train with a couple of minutes dwell time isn't very realistic is it?

 

[43066]

is it fairly safe to assume that there will be blanket ticket acceptance on those trains that ARE running?

No. Best advice is always to check with the guard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2024 ==

So it got me wondering, in severe disruption is it general policy to waive ticket restrictions (so long as people actually have one), and just get people where they need to go?

Generally people will try to help, but there may be occasions where TOCs decline ticket acceptance due to crowding issues etc.

 

[trainophile]

No. Best advice is always to check with the guard.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2024 ==

If you can find him/her!

Generally people will try to help, but there may be occasions where TOCs decline ticket acceptance due to crowding issues etc.

 

[43066]

If you can find him/her!

Yes, easier said than done sometimes, I do appreciate! However I wouldn’t advise anyone to assume that, just because Northern are disrupted, you can just jump onto a TPE train and assume it’ll be fine. It will be fine in many cases, of course, but the safest course is always to check first. Try and find them on the platform or, at the very least, make an effort to find them on the train. Don’t just plonk yourself down and wait to be found.

I sometimes have this (as a driver stretching my legs on the platform), where people come and ask me about tickets. I have no clue about ticket validity so I always say “you’ll have to ask the guard”, who is often at the other end of the train, and sometimes they just jump on. In that situation I buzz the guard up to let them know they did speak to me first!

 

[TrainHacker]

What happens if gate-line staff say to get on a train? Do they have more rights than the guard?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What happens if gate-line staff say to get on a train? Do they have more rights than the guard?

Can potentially be tricky. Many would argue that gate-line staff are authorised members of staff, and so have authority to allow you to board a specific train. But how do you then subsequently prove to the guard/train manager/revenue protection staff that you actually had such authorisation?

 

[TrainHacker]

I have asked at stations about a “permit to travel” stamped with a date - there does not seem to be any such thing to help the passenger!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Aug 2024 ==

Can potentially be tricky. Many would argue that gate-line staff are authorised members of staff, and so have authority to allow you to board a specific train. But how do you then subsequently prove to the guard/train manager/revenue protection staff that you actually had such authorisation?

Are you allowed to ask if you could record the gate-line staff telling you to travel on an alternative train?

 

[skyhigh]

Are you allowed to ask if you could record the gate-line staff telling you to travel on an alternative train?

Of course you're allowed to ask. Whether they'll agree or not is a different question

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Under GBR I am assuming that ticket acceptance across the network especially during disruption will be standard practice?

 

[43066]

What happens if gate-line staff say to get on a train? Do they have more rights than the guard?

No. The guard has absolute authority over their train, up to and including asking other staff members, such as revenue protection, to leave (rare, but it happens!).

@Mcr Warrior ’s comment above is essentially correct: if you’re given permission by an authorised person to board, which would include gateline staff, then you are entitled to do so. The issue will be proving it if challenged, hence my advice to always check with the guard, irrespective of what you’re told by anyone else.

Under GBR I am assuming that ticket acceptance across the network especially during disruption will be standard practice?

Nobody knows as yet, although I somehow doubt it.

 

[dodecahedron67]

What happens if gate-line staff say to get on a train? Do they have more rights than the guard?

At the end of the day the ultimate decision is with the guard

 

[Harpo]

Another twist on ticket acceptance earlier this year was an Avanti TM announcing that GWR customers being diverted to his train could only use First Class tickets in Standard Premium.

 

[yorkie]

Another twist on ticket acceptance earlier this year was an Avanti TM announcing that GWR customers being diverted to his train could only use First Class tickets in Standard Premium.

Which is completely wrong; a first class ticket is a first class ticket, and no-one could be excessed for using it in the appropriate class.

 

[Segedunum]

For the most part you'll find that guards are pretty understanding and will either say yes or will have a good reason as to why can't let you on.

The last time I asked a Northern guard if I could use an earlier train he walked with me to the RPIs on board and explained to them that I was good to travel - to save any ambiguity.

I also used split tickets last weekend - getting off a XC service to drop back onto an LNER. The LNER was cancelled so I asked the XC TM if I could just stay put rather than miss the last bus home. I was ushered on with a nod - again, no problem.

A minority of course will be difficult - but I've never found myself on the receiving end of a new ticket or worse.

 

[kkong]

Which is completely wrong; a first class ticket is a first class ticket, and no-one could be excessed for using it in the appropriate class.

It is what happens in practice, however.

I have experienced it myself when using a TPE 1st Class Advance ticket on an Avanti service during disruption.

If you have any suggestions for how passengers can use 1st class on Avanti in such circumstances, please let us know.

 

[yorkie]

It is what happens in practice, however.

I have experienced it myself when using a TPE 1st Class Advance ticket on an Avanti service during disruption.

If you have any suggestions for how passengers can use 1st class on Avanti in such circumstances, please let us know.

Pay the excess under duress and claim the money back from Avanti, who should provide an apology and appropriate training to their staff.

If I witnessed it, I would be having words with the TM and reporting the matter to Avanti.

If there were sufficient numbers, the passengers could potentially refuse to budge and the TM would have no option but to back down.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Which is completely wrong; a first class ticket is a first class ticket, and no-one could be excessed for using it in the appropriate class.

It is what happens in practice, however.

I have experienced it myself when using a TPE 1st Class Advance ticket on an Avanti service during disruption.

If you have any suggestions for how passengers can use 1st class on Avanti in such circumstances, please let us know.

Pay the excess under duress and claim the money back from Avanti, who should provide an apology and appropriate training to their staff.

If I witnessed it, I would be having words with the TM and reporting the matter to Avanti.

If there were sufficient numbers, the passengers could potentially refuse to budge and the TM would have no option but to back down.

We at TPE received a retail brief a few weeks ago detailing that when disruption on the WCML occurs:

- Customers with TPE only or AP TPE only 1st class tickets are only allowed to sit in standard premium on Avanti

- Customers with Avanti only or Avanti & connections 1st class tickets are allowed to sit in TPE 1st class but only allowed free tea, coffee, water - nothing else

- Customers holding Standard Premium Avanti tickets must sit in standard on TPE with no catering

 

[northscots]

Which is completely wrong; a first class ticket is a first class ticket, and no-one could be excessed for using it in the appropriate class.

Scotrail do the same with LNER advance 1st class tickets when there's disruption (on the rare occasion theres tickrt acceptance). They get standard class accommodation due to limited capacity.

 

[yorkie]

If first class is full, then that's that.

But if a customer was able to sit in first and was excessed, a refund would apply; if the company refuses to issue a refund, the course of action would be a letter before claim, followed by court action is necessary.

As it happens I am aware of at least two people who have had success with a letter before claim from Avanti, under slightly different circumstances during disruptive incidents. In one of these cases, it cost Avanti a four figure sum.

However, I suspect Avanti work on the basis that most passengers won't know their rights, or won't be prepared to fight for them.

 

[Twingo37175]

For the most part you'll find that guards are pretty understanding and will either say yes or will have a good reason as to why can't let you on.

I have had both sides.
Last year was travelling from Doncaster with east coast mainline disruption to change to TPE at Northallerton. Previous train was late (as well as mine) but guard had no problems with me travelling on the earlier train.
Last week however, turned up for a London train at Doncaster aware of delays to stock existing neville Hill. Asked the guard to travel on earlier service (both LNER services), but he was not for obliging saying he was expecting large numbers at Newark. Quite frustrating as the boards were displaying the train as lightly reserved, not full. In the end booked train was 25 late to kings Cross.

 

[Krokodil]

I have asked at stations about a “permit to travel” stamped with a date - there does not seem to be any such thing to help the passenger!

Some booking offices are happy to print an itinerary or hand write a note and stamp it.

Onboard I print an itinerary and write a note on the reverse. I try and have a word with the station staff if I can't contact the onward guard myself.

Always get permission in writing if someone other than the guard is authorising and the guard is not present at the time.

Under GBR I am assuming that ticket acceptance across the network especially during disruption will be standard practice?

I would hope that we will be shot of the silly, fragmented system we have now. Some hope...

 

[Starmill]

We at TPE received a retail brief a few weeks ago detailing that when disruption on the WCML occurs:

- Customers with TPE only or AP TPE only 1st class tickets are only allowed to sit in standard premium on Avanti

- Customers with Avanti only or Avanti & connections 1st class tickets are allowed to sit in TPE 1st class but only allowed free tea, coffee, water - nothing else

- Customers holding Standard Premium Avanti tickets must sit in standard on TPE with no catering

I think that's hilarious that TPE are arguing that first class ticket holders are allowed to sit in standard premium but standard premium ticket holders aren't allowed to sit in first class. It's an open and shut case of cakeism if ever there were one. Hopefully the customers in question are all submitting claims for pro-rated refunds on top of the usual compensation.

 

[yorkie]

I suspect it's more a case of Avanti falsely claiming that their First is superior and therefore only available to their own ticket holders, and TPE effectively doing a tit-for-tat response.

If the industry was properly regulated, Avanti would be brought to task and told to behave.

 

[IanXC]

No. The guard has absolute authority over their train, up to and including asking other staff members, such as revenue protection, to leave (rare, but it happens!).

Not really the case though.

A guard cannot overrule their own Control authorising ticket acceptance (although they can appeal to their Control to withdraw it)
That TOC's revenue staff will act to ticket validity rules plus any ticket acceptance agreed
Station and gateline staff (including where these are of different TOCs to the operator of the train) will act in accordance with the rules and ticket acceptance officially advised by the relevant TOC

A guard can, however, exercise discretion where a passenger would otherwise be travelling other than in accordance with ticket restrictions and issued ticket acceptance (including where revenue staff disagree) - but they cannot off their own back decline to carry passengers where their own TOC Control have authorised ticket acceptance.

 

[Sheridan]

I think that's hilarious that TPE are arguing that first class ticket holders are allowed to sit in standard premium but standard premium ticket holders aren't allowed to sit in first class. It's an open and shut case of cakeism if ever there were one. Hopefully the customers in question are all submitting claims for pro-rated refunds on top of the usual compensation.

I don’t see it that way at all;

TPE 1st class ticket holders can sit in standard premium on Avanti - a class below what they’ve paid for but acceptable to get them to their destination.

Avanti standard plus ticket holders can’t use 1st class on TPE - it’s a class above what they’ve paid for so why would they be able to.

Unless I’m missing something?

 

[WAB]

I don’t see it that way at all;

TPE 1st class ticket holders can sit in standard premium on Avanti - a class below what they’ve paid for but acceptable to get them to their destination.

Avanti standard plus ticket holders can’t use 1st class on TPE - it’s a class above what they’ve paid for so why would they be able to.

Unless I’m missing something?

The way I see it, standard premium is a first class seat, so that is what Avanti customers should be offered on TPE.

First class tickets are seat + the full complimentary offer, so that is what Avanti and TPE first class customers should get on both operators.

Anything less is unacceptable (except in the case of overcrowding in which case the usual compensation for the booked standard of accommodation being unavailable should apply).

 

[43066]

Not really the case though.

A guard cannot overrule their own Control authorising ticket acceptance (although they can appeal to their Control to withdraw it)
That TOC's revenue staff will act to ticket validity rules plus any ticket acceptance agreed
Station and gateline staff (including where these are of different TOCs to the operator of the train) will act in accordance with the rules and ticket acceptance officially advised by the relevant TOC

A guard can, however, exercise discretion where a passenger would otherwise be travelling other than in accordance with ticket restrictions and issued ticket acceptance (including where revenue staff disagree) - but they cannot off their own back decline to carry passengers where their own TOC Control have authorised ticket acceptance.

If ticket acceptance is known to be in place the. I agree there would be no need to find the guard first. However the OP asked about whether they could assume ticket acceptance during disruption, which is not the case. Absent a clear message on the TOC website, it’s always best to check first.

I disagree with your last paragraph based on what I’ve seen happen in practice. The guard always retains ultimate authority to decline to take more passengers, irrespective of tickets held and whatever arrangements might be in place: they can simply refuse to dispatch the train if (in their opinion) it’s too crowded to operate safely. I’ve even known TMs to refuse special stop orders where the train is already very crowded. It’s still fairly unusual for things to get to that stage, but unfortunately both of these scenarios are increasingly happening at my operator due to weekend crowding levels.

 

[IanXC]

If ticket acceptance is known to be in place the. I agree there would be no need to find the guard first. However the OP asked about whether they could assume ticket acceptance during disruption, which is not the case. Absent a clear message on the TOC website, it’s always best to check first.

I disagree with your last paragraph based on what I’ve seen happen in practice. The guard always retains ultimate authority to decline to take more passengers, irrespective of tickets held and whatever arrangements might be in place: they can simply refuse to dispatch the train if (in their opinion) it’s too crowded to operate safely. I’ve even known TMs to refuse special stop orders where the train is already very crowded. It’s still fairly unusual for things to get to that stage, but unfortunately both of these scenarios are increasingly happening at my operator due to weekend crowding levels.

The guard retains the safety responsibility for the train yes, but thats the same regardless of whether ticket acceptance is in place or not. The guard cannot however decline to accept tickets that their Control has agreed to accept; they do not have absolute authority as you put it, they are required to follow their company's instructions. If they feel the situation is unmanageable it is for them to agree a way forward with their Control, not for the guard to act unilaterally.

 

[Pompey00]

The best thing is to always ask the guard before boarding, that’s what I tell people to do as I’m a Gateline assistant as the guard can say yes or no.

Some people ask but others worry they won’t find them in time and jump on to ask which mean they can be asked to leave or fined if revenue on the train.

but if they said it’s ok and revenue are on the train they can’t get in trouble as it’s under the guards discretion but like I say always check as might as not always gonna be a ticket acceptance.
Most of the time they just say yes and let you on it’s only the odd few what won’t.

 

[43066]

The guard retains the safety responsibility for the train yes, but thats the same regardless of whether ticket acceptance is in place or not. The guard cannot however decline to accept tickets that their Control has agreed to accept; they do not have absolute authority as you put it, they are required to follow their company's instructions. If they feel the situation is unmanageable it is for them to agree a way forward with their Control, not for the guard to act unilaterally.

I’m not saying they should be declining ticket acceptance on a half empty train, and they will initially follow the company’s instructions, yes, but that does not mean they are required to accept unlimited numbers of passengers. Once (in their view) safety is compromised they can unilateraly refuse to dispatch until some passengers disembark.

If things get too bad they can simply take the train out of service. Control will be informed and will then need to work around it. There will be no comeback on the guard, just so long as they can justify their actions on the grounds of safety - and it is their view of the situation that matters.

Control are fully aware and on board with this, of course, and it is to prevent precisely these sorts of scenarios from arising that operators sometimes decline ticket acceptance. I’m not sure what any of this has to do with the OP’s query, though.