Through Train Rule and Engineering works.

[IanD]

Still trying to get my head round the routeing guide (RG)!

With regards to engineering works and through trains, the RG states "Any through train diverted from its usual route will count as a permitted route between the stations it is normally scheduled to call at."

However, it's not clear what happens when due to engineering works a through train is terminated short and the remainder of the journey is by replacement bus. It's clearly not "diverted" from it's usual route so where does a ticket holder stand?

As an Example take the London Terminals to Margate Plus High Speed ticket. This is valid on through trains via Ashford International but on 16th February, these are terminating at Minster with a bus for the rest of the journey. Does that change from bus to train invalidate the route because it fails the fares check? Is the ticket now only valid via Ebbsfleet and Faversham?

 

[soil]

I think the idea is that if a route is ordinarily permitted, it would still be permitted when disruption is affecting any part of it, but also that where a regularly scheduled service is diverted from its normal route, through stations that are normally not permitted, then the diverted route is permitted during that time.

 

[34D]

I think the idea is that if a route is ordinarily permitted, it would still be permitted when disruption is affecting any part of it, but also that where a regularly scheduled service is diverted from its normal route, through stations that are normally not permitted, then the diverted route is permitted during that time.

I think that we can consider the printed saturday/sunday timetable as the 'normal' one for these purposes: so a train that is amended/curtailed on Sat 16th Feb would count for shortest route/direct trains in the way most favourable to each particular passenger, ie:
-its normal schedule
-the amended schedule

What I am less clear on is how this might apply when the timetable shows (for example) some trains headed code A which is jan-march and some headed code B which is april-may.

 

[IanD]

I emailed Southeastern web support about the Margate routing and they said that during engineering works you must travel via Faversham from either Victoria or St Pancras.

I also called the Southeastern helpline (which is apparently based in Tonbridge) and they said that either route (Faversham or Ashford) would be permitted during engineering works.

More confused than ever!

 

[yorkie]

Still trying to get my head round the routeing guide (RG)!

With regards to engineering works and through trains, the RG states "Any through train diverted from its usual route will count as a permitted route between the stations it is normally scheduled to call at."

Yes, that's correct. This means that a route not normally permitted can be permitted.

However, it's not clear what happens when due to engineering works a through train is terminated short and the remainder of the journey is by replacement bus. It's clearly not "diverted" from it's usual route so where does a ticket holder stand?

In this case there are no additional rights, unless the TOC(s) is/are allowing people to take a longer way round to avoid the bus.

As an Example take the London Terminals to Margate Plus High Speed ticket. This is valid on through trains via Ashford International but on 16th February, these are terminating at Minster with a bus for the rest of the journey. Does that change from bus to train invalidate the route because it fails the fares check? Is the ticket now only valid via Ebbsfleet and Faversham?

The fares check is unaffected as the fares remain the same. It's still a permitted route, but part of the route is replaced by a bus.

I emailed Southeastern web support about the Margate routing and they said that during engineering works you must travel via Faversham from either Victoria or St Pancras.

I also called the Southeastern helpline (which is apparently based in Tonbridge) and they said that either route (Faversham or Ashford) would be permitted during engineering works.

More confused than ever!

It sounds like Southeastern web support are about as useless as East Coast web support.:roll: I would take anything they say with a pinch of salt. It they were let loose on this forum we'd have to place them on moderation due to their ability to spread ridiculously inaccurate information. Quite how they manage the levels of incompetence they can reach is a mystery to me.

You may find this extract from the RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide helpful:

3.9 Engineering work

On occasions due to short notice engineering work and disruption, services may be diverted from their normal routes or customers asked to use alternative routes. In these circumstances operators are required to make special provision to allow extra permitted routes. They should advise other operators and retailers of the extra provisions made to convey customers by routes other than those which are normally permitted. This provision should also apply to connecting services which are not directly affected.

Unfortunately in some cases provision is not made, and this can lead to booking sites not offering itineraries for some journeys during times of engineering work. In these cases it is best to contact the relevant Train Company and seek advice. It may be necessary to book through telesales or at a station rather than online.

Any through train diverted from its usual route will count as a permitted route between the stations it is normally scheduled to call at. This does not apply to additional stops on the diversionary route, unless specially advised or they are on the permitted route for the journey being made. For example, a York to Edinburgh service diverted via Newcastle and Carlisle, would be considered to be taking a permitted route. Therefore, a passenger holding a Preston to Edinburgh ticket would be valid on this train, as York is on a permitted route and the route taken by this train counts as a permitted route.

Tickets routed via specific stations that are on the route a train would normally take, remain valid.

Tickets routed via specific stations that are on the diverted route, additionally become valid, on the diverted trains.

 

[Goatboy]

Engineering works always confuse me with validity - I use a Rover ticket fairly often which is affected by engineering works whenever they do work between Gloucester and Birmingham (Which they are doing at the moment). The result of this is that there are no real workable connections from A to B via Cheltenham and the only practical way is via another route that takes me outside the Rovers validity. Frustrating, but it ends up meaning that in times of Engineering works I need to purchase extra tickets to make my usual journey. Oh well.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Yes, that's correct. This means that a route not normally permitted can be permitted.

In this case there are no additional rights, unless the TOC(s) is/are allowing people to take a longer way round to avoid the bus.

:

Agreed.

You can use a through train that is diverted away from it's normal route.

However, if your ticket says "route via A" you must still go via A even if part of that journey is on a bus, unless you upgrade your ticket to take an alternative route. Just because you do not like a bus does not automatically mean your route restricted ticket would be valid via an alternative route for free. (Unless the train you are on would normally go via A but was a diverted through train, as per last year's Stalybridge blockade for example)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

My opinion here (for the Op's query) is that there is a literal answer and a customer service answer, and they are not the same.

 

[IanD]

...Just because you do not like a bus does not automatically mean your route restricted ticket would be valid via an alternative route for free.

If going to Margate I want to go on the bus so I can travel HS1 to Ashford! I'd probably come back via Faversham for the change of scenery.

My opinion here (for the Op's query) is that there is a literal answer and a customer service answer, and they are not the same.

And it would be my luck to meet a train manager who gives a literal answer