Through journey

[paulgreen32]

Hi,

If I was to travel from oxenholme to Euston on 16.24, arriving at 19.14 and then travel back to oxenholme on the 19.30 on a return ticket.
Obviously I can do this but if I'm delayed and miss the 19.30 I can't get further than Lancaster. As I've left 15 mins between trains is this a connection ??? If not where does it say what the connection isn't to go back on yourself ?i know this is strange but a passenger does this every week to drop her kids off and wanted to know if she was entitled to a taxi from Lancaster to oxenholme.

Cheers in advance

Paul

 

[yorkie]

I think that should be accepted as a valid connection.

Though not very common, there can be a requirement to drop off or collect family members, documents or deliveries.

However I would recommend writing to (or emailing, but not telephoning) Virgin to seek clarification.

If they say "no" then there are options to escalate the matter.

But if they say "yes", the evidence can be produced in the event of any dispute.

 

[DJ737]

The minimum connection time at London Euston is 15 minutes, so you should be OK.

 

[Mag_seven]

I was one told that "Up trains don't connect into Down trains". I know that's a load of old tosh but be prepared for a possible argument if the connection is broken due to the unusual nature of the connection.

 

[najaB]

I was one told that "Up trains don't connect into Down trains". I know that's a load of old tosh but be prepared for a possible argument if the connection is broken due to the unusual nature of the connection.

They don't - inasmuch as one won't be held for the other, but that's not the OP's situation. They are making a journey with two legs, the only question is if the railway considers A-B-A to be one journey or not. If they don't leave railway premises then I agree that it should be treated as one journey.

 

[greatkingrat]

The problem is that if you claim to be making one continuous journey to Oxenholme, then does the railway have any obligation to get you there via Euston? Could they for example tell you to alight at Milton Keynes in order to catch the last NB train back to Oxenholme?

 

[bb21]

The problem is that if you claim to be making one continuous journey to Oxenholme, then does the railway have any obligation to get you there via Euston? Could they for example tell you to alight at Milton Keynes in order to catch the last NB train back to Oxenholme?

Yes they can. If it is argued to be one journey, you cannot insist on travelling Oxenholme - Euston - Oxenholme. It's ridiculous.

 

[MikeWh]

Yes they can. If it is argued to be one journey, you cannot insist on travelling Oxenholme - Euston - Oxenholme. It's ridiculous.

Can you imagine the field day the press would have if you were forced to abandon kids at Milton Keynes when their Dad was at Euston, just because their Mum had to get back to Oxenholme?

 

[yorkie]

Can you imagine the field day the press would have if you were forced to abandon kids at Milton Keynes when their Dad was at Euston, just because their Mum had to get back to Oxenholme?

Agreed.

I would purchase, in one transaction, relevant tickets and accompanying reservations that clearly demonstrate the intended actions of dropping the kids off. I would make the booking at a Virgin Trains ticket office or telesales.

In the event of disruption I would show all applicable documentation to a member of VT staff and seek advice.

 

[gray1404]

Agreed.

I would purchase, in one transaction, relevant tickets and accompanying reservations that clearly demonstrate the intended actions of dropping the kids off. I would make the booking at a Virgin Trains ticket office or telesales.

In the event of disruption I would show all applicable documentation to a member of VT staff and seek advice.

How about online at the Virgin Trains website in the one transaction?

 

[bb21]

Can you imagine the field day the press would have if you were forced to abandon kids at Milton Keynes when their Dad was at Euston, just because their Mum had to get back to Oxenholme?

That wasn't the question asked.

There is no need for her to abandon her kids in any case. She could perfectly well spend a night in London if she insists on travelling via Euston.

From the point of contract law, the purpose of the journey is irrelevant. It is either one journey, in which case there is no right to travel via Euston, or they are two separate journeys, in which case she did not present herself in time for the last train of the day.

In reality, if she missed the last train due to a small delay, she'd probably just be put on the next one to Preston(?) and a taxi from thereon.

 

[MikeWh]

... but a passenger does this every week to drop her kids off and wanted to know if she was entitled to a taxi from Lancaster to oxenholme.

The problem is that if you claim to be making one continuous journey to Oxenholme, then does the railway have any obligation to get you there via Euston? Could they for example tell you to alight at Milton Keynes in order to catch the last NB train back to Oxenholme?

That wasn't the question asked.

The OP mentioned the first bit and greatkingrat suggested the rest which you agreed could be actioned. I feel it very well was part of the question being asked by this thread.

In reality, if she missed the last train due to a small delay, she'd probably just be put on the next one to Preston(?) and a taxi from thereon.

Well I sincerely hope so.

 

[najaB]

Could they for example tell you to alight at Milton Keynes in order to catch the last NB train back to Oxenholme?

Not MK as the train is non-stop from Warrington to Euston.

And in the general case they could only require you to do that if they know about the problem before you get to the last station where a transfer could be made.

 

[paulgreen32]

Thank you all for the input, I agree it's a strange journey to make but this does happen.
If a connection is missed at any station and the minimum connection times is left prior to starting the journey then surely the railway has an obligation to fulfil it.
I assume from all the comments and opinion that although it is a valid journey and connection it's only that because there is nothing in writing anywhere to stop it ? After all if it's not in black and white somewhere then it's not enforceable.

Paul

 

[AlterEgo]

In practice, it is unlikely anyone on the ground would refuse to consider providing a taxi or alternative transport in the OP's case.

That isn't the same as arguing that Oxenholme-LONDON-Oxenholme is a through journey. I feel that's a ridiculous assertion and I would urge caution among members suggesting that it is. Play the game, but I don't advocate pushing your luck.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Is there anything for saying that transferring children around requires a bit of common sense? I'm all for holding TOCs to account regarding the obligations they have to ticket holders but trains sometimes run late. I would have thought that the best advice by far in this case is to get the train an hour earlier.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I was one told that "Up trains don't connect into Down trains". I know that's a load of old tosh but be prepared for a possible argument if the connection is broken due to the unusual nature of the connection.

Does anyone know what the consideration to a passenger is when their outward leg is heavily delayed? E.g. I decide to go to London for a 6-hour visit and my train is 4 hours late for some reason, e.g. overhead wires, fatality etc. Can I go home a bit later on the grounds that I can't complete my business in 2 hours? If the answer is "tough luck" then the OP won't have much chance with a 15-minute visit.

 

[miami]

Is there anything for saying that transferring children around requires a bit of common sense? I'm all for holding TOCs to account regarding the obligations they have to ticket holders but trains sometimes run late. I would have thought that the best advice by far in this case is to get the train an hour earlier.

I suspect as they are kids that the school day would preclude an earlier train.

It's a shame the 2030 ends at Preston (and change for Lancaster) rather than Carlisle - makes a commute from the lakes to London a right pain.

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone know what the consideration to a passenger is when their outward leg is heavily delayed? E.g. I decide to go to London for a 6-hour visit and my train is 4 hours late for some reason, e.g. overhead wires, fatality etc. Can I go home a bit later on the grounds that I can't complete my business in 2 hours? If the answer is "tough luck" then the OP won't have much chance with a 15-minute visit.

I don't think there is an automatic right to a later train as such, but the rail industry would be wise apply common sense, as consumer law does apply to rail travel.

 

[yorkie]

In practice, it is unlikely anyone on the ground would refuse to consider providing a taxi or alternative transport in the OP's case.

Indeed.

That isn't the same as arguing that Oxenholme-LONDON-Oxenholme is a through journey. I feel that's a ridiculous assertion and I would urge caution among members suggesting that it is. Play the game, but I don't advocate pushing your luck.

True; I did warn about this in the thread titled Circular trip using advances

Arguably, where someone has booked via a particular station for a specific reason, this should be taken into account. Good evidence of this would be holding tickets that enable an adult to make a two-way journey, and tickets for accompanying children on one of the legs. Writing to the train company to state the intention of the journey and clarify the company's position, as I advised earlier, is also recommended.

 

[bb21]

Does anyone know what the consideration to a passenger is when their outward leg is heavily delayed? E.g. I decide to go to London for a 6-hour visit and my train is 4 hours late for some reason, e.g. overhead wires, fatality etc. Can I go home a bit later on the grounds that I can't complete my business in 2 hours? If the answer is "tough luck" then the OP won't have much chance with a 15-minute visit.

There is no automatic right, although I believe that internal guidance had been issued previously to member TOCs to apply discretion where the outward journey was severely delayed, and allow customers to use a later return service where applicable to enable them to fulfil the purpose of their journeys. A six-hour stay being shortened to four hours may well fit that.

Note the word "severe".

 

[yorkie]

How about online at the Virgin Trains website in the one transaction?

It would be better to do this at a ticket office or telesales, so that the intention can be made clear to a member of the company's staff and a suitable opportunity for agreement to be reached that it is a legitimate booking (it would be essential if the customer wanted to benefit from a Family Railcard discount for the child tickets).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes they can. If it is argued to be one journey, you cannot insist on travelling Oxenholme - Euston - Oxenholme. It's ridiculous.

This problem exists in other places, too. Typically when you plan a day return journey, it is based on needing a specific amount of time at the destination, and often there isn't much flexibility in that time. Yet if two Advances are booked, and the outbound train is 3 hours late, you don't get those 3 hours back to do what you need to do at the destination.

Breaks of Journey are similar in a way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a shame the 2030 ends at Preston (and change for Lancaster) rather than Carlisle - makes a commute from the lakes to London a right pain.

I don't know about a *commute*, that'd be mad. But indeed the Lakes is poorly served from the South East by train in the evening (the Windermere branch doesn't operate late enough either - the last train from Oxenholme is 2142 and could do with being something more like 2330, possibly FO), which must result in a lot of weekend trip traffic ending up on the roads.

 

[miami]

I don't know about a *commute*, that'd be mad. But indeed the Lakes is poorly served from the South East by train in the evening (the Windermere branch doesn't operate late enough either - the last train from Oxenholme is 2142 and could do with being something more like 2330, possibly FO), which must result in a lot of weekend trip traffic ending up on the roads.

Daily commute would be crazy (although Oxenholme to Manchester is a reasonable distance, 1h15, but a last departure at 20:20 (with a change) could be better.

However if you go to London every week or two, a day trip becomes problematic.

 

[najaB]

Does anyone know what the consideration to a passenger is when their outward leg is heavily delayed? E.g. I decide to go to London for a 6-hour visit and my train is 4 hours late for some reason, e.g. overhead wires, fatality etc. Can I go home a bit later on the grounds that I can't complete my business in 2 hours?

Interesting. If your train is so late on departure that there's no point in travelling you can abandon your journey and receive a full refund, I'm not sure if that applies to delays picked up en-route (but I think it should).

And the TOC would be obliged to get you back to your starting station.

So, and this is where it gets interesting, in the OP's scenario if they tell the guard that they wish to abandon their journey after departing Warrington, they will get the their taxi back to Oxenholme - and should arguably get their money back!

30.1 If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will
not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged.

28.1 If disruption prevents you from completing the journey shown on your Ticket, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary provide overnight accommodation for you.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Sounds to me as if that second clause protects the OP: it doesn't say that the disruption that prevents completion of the journey has to be on *that* journey. I'm not normally one for terms & conditions semantic games but, like the situation where you have two or more tickets for a more conventional journey, i.e. not a complete double back, it's disruption arising from "the railway" at a fairly general level that is taken account of.