Through GWR Bedwyns to be axed from May 2022

[Glenn1969]

RTT is still showing a regular through service from Paddington at Bedwyn in the May timetable. Take it that isn't right?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

RTT is still showing a regular through service from Paddington at Bedwyn in the May timetable. Take it that isn't right?

That is correct, it isn’t correct.

 

[nw1]

I have heard that from two independent GWR sources on the basis that DfT want the HSTs withdrawn ASAP.

Are the HSTs actually unsafe / 'unrailworthy' ? If they are, fair point, if not, I'm not convinced this is a good idea.

Is it really a good idea to recommend withdrawal of stock when there is nothing to replace them without poaching stock from other lines?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are the HSTs actually unsafe / 'unrailworthy' ?

No, but they are incredibly expensive to run.

 

[Goldfish62]

Is it really a good idea to recommend withdrawal of stock when there is nothing to replace them without poaching stock from other lines?

But that's the very idea. Replaced by 5-car IETs cascaded due to service cuts elsewhere. That's what's proposed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2022 ==

No, but they are incredibly expensive to run.

And the DfT is demanding significant savings this year.

Apart from staffing, which is obviously best avoided, the only other way is to withdraw whole batches of the rolling stock. That's where the HSTs come in.

 

[nw1]

But that's the very idea. Replaced by 5-car IETs cascaded due to service cuts elsewhere. That's what's proposed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2022 ==


And the DfT is demanding significant savings this year.

Apart from staffing, which is obviously best avoided, the only other way is to withdraw whole batches of the rolling stock. That's where the HSTs come in.

But if the price of removing the HSTs is cutting services like the Bedwyn, which has been going since the early (?) 90s...

I guess the hope is that these are all temporary arrangements for this economically-tight period and things will improve again in a few years.

 

[JonathanH]

But if the price of removing the HSTs is cutting services like the Bedwyn, which has been going since the early (?) 90s...

Yes, all day through services to Bedwyn since 1993, not every hour at first though and they ran semi-fast east of Reading.

Prior to that, the fast NSE trains had terminated at Newbury for a DMU shuttle to Bedwyn / extensions of locals from Reading.

Just going back to an early 1990s style situation really by reintroducing the shuttle arrangement.

 

[Towers]

Given that the sole purpose of this train is to connect towards London (literally nobody is going to be doing Bedwyn-Hungerford, they'll just drive) then clearly it should be treated as one train for connection purposes, i.e. always held.

With respect, it doesn't have a "sole purpose", seeing as it provides the only regular rail link that the residents of Bedwyn, Hungerford & Kintbury have, and is a substantial part of the regular daytime service that Newbury, Thatcham & Theale have. That's a good few people, and they don't all want to go to London every time!

During the peaks the Bedwyns are very well loaded with locals commuting a few stops down the B&H to get to/from work; there is a lot of industry at Theale, Vodafone's HQ at Newbury with their staff bus link, etc. You certainly get the London commuters in the peaks as well, but they are by no means the only people that it serves. Outside of the peaks the service is lightly loaded but remains local-orientated, plenty of short trips into Newbury etc. There is certainly a separate valid discussion about the peak services, but whilst maintaining an all day direct link into London with intercity stock might be an aspiration, it's difficult to argue that it is the best use of that rolling stock at a time when it is in short supply.

 

[Goldfish62]

I guess the hope is that these are all temporary arrangements for this economically-tight period and things will improve again in a few years.

I think we all hope that. Question is what does the Treasury want? It could very want a permanently slimmed down railway with passenger demand tempered through high fares and infrequent services, BR-style.

 

[Towers]

I think we all hope that. Question is what does the Treasury want? It could very want a permanently slimmed down railway with passenger demand tempered through high fares and infrequent services, BR-style.

Presumably whatever it thinks will cost it the least overall

 

[cle]

It could seem that a bi-hourly service calls out for an alt service on the other hour (except Ipswich-P'boro it seems!)

Perhaps even a Westbury-Reading 1tp2h service might be useful for maintaining connectivity on either end - yes many fast London services to jump onto, but to other places and for Reading access itself - and Westbury as a mini-hub westward. Plus local journeys between the towns, and either side of Newbury too.

 

[Fast Track]

Presumably whatever it thinks will cost it the least overall

What an absolute mess. Having just visited the GWR coffee shop portal there is a very informative report from the Bedwyn users group of their meeting with GWR. It seems the new bi mode 800s are being relocated to a non electrified part of the network you couldn’t make it up.

 

[JonathanH]

What an absolute mess.

Hardly. They are just allocating expensive resources to another part of the network to remove traction that is expensive to operate, and making more all day use of the Turbo allocated to peak time workings west of Newbury.

If you think about it, the commuters from the Kennet Valley probably used to justify the use of 80x all day, supporting the level of service provision. Now they are diminished in number, the cost of providing that all day service is no longer supportable.

The economic advantage of this change is very apparent.

 

[RPI]

What an absolute mess. Having just visited the GWR coffee shop portal there is a very informative report from the Bedwyn users group of their meeting with GWR. It seems the new bi mode 800s are being relocated to a non electrified part of the network you couldn’t make it up.

Well, if they're used on the Cardiff-Taunton route then i would have thought they will pan up between somewhere around Pilning through to Cardiff?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

But that's the very idea. Replaced by 5-car IETs cascaded due to service cuts elsewhere. That's what's proposed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2022 ==


And the DfT is demanding significant savings this year.

Apart from staffing, which is obviously best avoided, the only other way is to withdraw whole batches of the rolling stock. That's where the HSTs come in.

The IETs cost a lot more to lease but they are locked into them through a 27.5yr lease agreement whereas the HSTs will be on a lease matched to current agreement at worse. Presumably a whole load more driver training will be required if they move West and given they don't like the sea at Dawlish not exactly a smart move.

 

[Goldfish62]

The IETs cost a lot more to lease but they are locked into them through a 27.5yr lease agreement whereas the HSTs will be on a lease matched to current agreement at worse. Presumably a whole load more driver training will be required if they move West and given they don't like the sea at Dawlish not exactly a smart move.

Not sure about driver training. A lot of drivers already drive both.

 

[Horizon22]

I have heard that from two independent GWR sources on the basis that DfT want the HSTs withdrawn ASAP.

They're not going ASAP, but certainly yes, the DfT are accelerating their plans to look at options for withdrawing HSTs / Castle Class 255s perhaps sooner than anticipated. As stated above, they're getting quite expensive and are approaching the other half of a "U" shaped curve as they start to reach areas of obsolescence.

 

[Goldfish62]

They're not going ASAP, but certainly yes, the DfT are accelerating their plans to look at options for withdrawing HSTs / Castle Class 255s perhaps sooner than anticipated. As stated above, they're getting quite expensive and are approaching the other half of a "U" shaped curve as they start to reach areas of obsolescence.

Thanks for the clarification. That makes sense.

 

[miklcct]

Remember when connecting times were shown in the timetable in italic type? Those have gone too.

These haven't gone yet for SWR - the timetable for my local line (Weymouth - London) is still showing the connections to stations where the train doesn't stop, e.g. a connection to Woking from the semi-fast, to Basingstoke and Clapham Junction from the last, or to Woking and London Waterloo from an XC service.

Also, the automatic on-board announcements still speak out the connections at key interchange stations such as Southampton Central as well.

Furthermore, trains run frequently enough on most lines (normally 2 trains per hour or more, even on branch lines such as Brockenhurst - Lymington) that holding connections isn't really necessary, and with most trains running on their local line only, the chance of delay is relatively small.

I believe other TOCs should all learn from the like of London Overground or SWR, building their network to be reliable by running frequent trains on their own lines as a self-contained network, like running an Underground network.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Having just visited the GWR coffee shop portal there is a very informative report from the Bedwyn users group of their meeting with GWR. It seems the new bi mode 800s are being relocated to a non electrified part of the network you couldn’t make it up.

Informed? In-accurate more like. Cardiff to Patchway is electrified and then they will run onto Taunton on diesel in the same way the route to Bedwyn from London is only part electrified.

 

[Parallel]

Perhaps even a Westbury-Reading 1tp2h service might be useful for maintaining connectivity on either end - yes many fast London services to jump onto, but to other places and for Reading access itself - and Westbury as a mini-hub westward. Plus local journeys between the towns, and either side of Newbury too.

I think the issue is GWR don’t really have enough stock to extend the service due to the 769s being delayed and therefore the Turbos are stuck at Reading. Also Westbury is congested at the best of times, a fourth platform would probably be required - there is space for it but it would be quite expensive for probably little reward.

I’m quite surprised they didn’t just wire to Bedwyn the first time round, to be honest!

I personally think 769s running Reading - Bedwyn off-peak would be ideal (if they ever enter service) as they could switch to diesel at Newbury.

 

[Jimini]

I’m quite surprised they didn’t just wire to Bedwyn the first time round, to be honest!

I'm no expert, but that's the pertinent question in my mind as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2022 ==


**Edit** Having just read the "Bedwyn Trains Passenger Group" notes, they haven't exactly done themselves and favours in the NIMBY stakes. Shades of Steventon:

"1. Extend electrification to Bedwyn: This was something we didn’t champion. BTPG have always been very cautious about bringing the ugly overhead wires and gantries through the Kennet Valley.
2. The bi-mode IET solution: This was the one that was implemented and we thought would be with us for many years.
3. Kitting the Class 387 trains with batteries so they could run onto Bedwyn. GWR were seriously considering this before going for option 2."

My bold.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm no expert, but that's the pertinent question in my mind as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2022 ==


**Edit** Having just read the "Bedwyn Trains Passenger Group" notes, they haven't exactly done themselves and favours in the NIMBY stakes. Shades of Steventon:

"1. Extend electrification to Bedwyn: This was something we didn’t champion. BTPG have always been very cautious about bringing the ugly overhead wires and gantries through the Kennet Valley.
2. The bi-mode IET solution: This was the one that was implemented and we thought would be with us for many years.
3. Kitting the Class 387 trains with batteries so they could run onto Bedwyn. GWR were seriously considering this before going for option 2."

My bold.

You could copy and paste #1 and replace Bedwyn with "Bath" and Kennet Valley with "Avon Valley"...

 

[Jimini]

You could copy and paste #1 and replace Bedwyn with "Bath" and Kennet Valley with "Avon Valley"...

Indeed, indeed.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Perhaps even a Westbury-Reading 1tp2h service might be useful for maintaining connectivity on either end - yes many fast London services to jump onto, but to other places and for Reading access itself - and Westbury as a mini-hub westward. Plus local journeys between the towns, and either side of Newbury too.

This is something on the lines (no pun intended) that I had in mind further up the thread, using as little as possible and getting the best use out of it whilst providing some sort of service.

Having just read the "Bedwyn Trains Passenger Group" notes, they haven't exactly done themselves and favours in the NIMBY stakes. Shades of Steventon:

"1. Extend electrification to Bedwyn: This was something we didn’t champion. BTPG have always been very cautious about bringing the ugly overhead wires and gantries through the Kennet Valley.

There's overhead wires going up the Aire Valley (well as far as Skipton) which is equally picturesque, so why can't overheads go through the Kennet Valley? The attitude of the Bedwyn Trains Passenger Group regarding the installation of the overheads comes across to me as a group whose intent on stagnating their own rail service who'll then complain to GWR that they've lost their rail service entirely because there's no suitable stock to run it. I think they, the BTPG, would have a melt down if rail replacement buses / peasant wagons were ever to be suggested.

 

[Mark J]

With hindsight, perhaps the terminus of the Paddington outer suburban service should have been Marlborough!

I agree.

Marlborough - a town without a current rail connection, could benefit hugely from a couple of miles of reinstated track, plus being the termination point of Paddington services.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Updated timings now in Real Time Trains including stops at Hungerford in some West of England semi-fast trains.

 

[Western Sunset]

If they couldn't suss out the Didcot - Oxford electrification, I doubt they'd consider Newbury - Bedwyn. If Westbury were to be considered more of a "hub" than it is at present, then thoughts might have to turn to reopen the other side of the former island (which currently just has platform 1). Also possibly put back two platforms at Frome, if more passenger traffic is planned that way.

 

[The exile]

Indeed, indeed.

Although unlike the situation in both Bristol and Oxford, I am unaware of a major Bedwyn remodelling project which is far more sensibly done before electrification than immediately after.

 

[Acton1991]

Playing devil's advocate, if you look at other outer suburban terminators from London, a town of Newbury's size to be the natural end point would make the most sense, wouldn't it?