Three Way Splits

[Galvanize]

Hi All

This December timetable change sees a change to a particular service, the 1732 from London Bridge to Horsham/Tonbridge, currently a 12 car 377, splitting at Redhill, front 8 coaches to Horsham, rear 4 to Tonbridge. This change will now add a portion for Reigate, which means the service will split three ways at Redhill, front 4 coaches for Horsham, middle 4 for Tonbridge and rear 4 for Reigate.

Now this got me thinking, three way splits at the same location does seem quite bizarre, apart from the Highland Sleeper at Edinburgh, are there any other services that are BOOKED to have a three way split?

 

[southerner2174]

That'll be fun to work NOT!!! Especially if PIS goes down, I wonder how many people will end up in the wrong part and having to do the mad run down or up the platform at Redhill.

Southern used to do a 3 way split a few years ago, with a 12 car splitting at Haywards Heath, front 4 to Eastbourne, rear 8 to Worthing and split again, with front 4 (original middle 4) to Southampton and rear 4 to Littlehampton.

I think a 3 ways split still happens on the Ore, Eastbourne and Littlehampton 12 car services on Saturdays as well, with it splitting at Haywards Heath and then at Eastbourne.

I remember having the fortune of working one of these with no PIS due to the Littlehampton portion going to Portsmouth instead, no chance of getting a full ticket check through a 12 car before Haywards Heath, being stopped every minute to ask where they need to be etc.

It certainly helps if the PIS works, if it doesnt then your literally stuffed!!!

 

[Galvanize]

Yeah I believe the Ore and Littlehampton 3 way split still occurs on Saturdays.

1732 is already a very busy train, full and standing leaving London Bridge, mainly people going to Gatwick Airport, as there are no fast services around that time of day. It used to be impossible when it was just an 8 car (4 for Horsham, 4 for Tonbridge).

I can actually imagine the mad run down the platform at Redhill just to make sure you're in the right part of the train. I've seen it happen at Northampton once on a London Midland service, the service was a Crewe/Brum splitter, but the PIS was advertising it the wrong way round...!!

 

[southerner2174]

If i remember correctly that train will also stop at norwood junction so SDO comes into effect, the first opportunity any guard will have to even think about commencing a ticket check will be after East Croydon and thats only a 5 minute journey to Purley so 1 coach if lucky, considering the guard will have to be in the right place for Redhill for his relevant part to take onto wherever he is going and to hand over any problems to the other 2 guards taking over their respective portions, i cant imagine any ticket check will take place until after the split, also bearing in mind the curved platform at Coulsdon South.
Also knowing the number of muppets (sorry passengers) on that train who will take no notice of any announcements that are made i can well imagine a few of them will be in the wrong portion for the first few weeks

 

[Eagle]

I may be imagining it, but didn't there once use to be a 9-car SWT service that split at Salisbury, front 3 to Exeter, middle 3 to Bristol, rear 3 terminate and go to the depot?

 

[swt_passenger]

I may be imagining it, but didn't there once use to be a 9-car SWT service that split at Salisbury, front 3 to Exeter, middle 3 to Bristol, rear 3 terminate and go to the depot?

Yes, I thought of that and it seems it's on Saturday afternoons only?

1L33 1347 3 Exeter St Davids 3 159 (formed off) 1220 Waterloo FP
1V33 1352 3 Bristol Temple Meads 3 159 (formed off)1220 Waterloo MP
5L33 13+55 3 Salisbury Depot 3 159 (formed off)1220 Waterloo RP

Not quite as confusing for passengers as a three way split, but probably causes nearly as much rushing about like headless chickens...

 

[Galvanize]

If i remember correctly that train will also stop at norwood junction so SDO comes into effect, the first opportunity any guard will have to even think about commencing a ticket check will be after East Croydon and thats only a 5 minute journey to Purley so 1 coach if lucky, considering the guard will have to be in the right place for Redhill for his relevant part to take onto wherever he is going and to hand over any problems to the other 2 guards taking over their respective portions, i cant imagine any ticket check will take place until after the split, also bearing in mind the curved platform at Coulsdon South.
Also knowing the number of muppets (sorry passengers) on that train who will take no notice of any announcements that are made i can well imagine a few of them will be in the wrong portion for the first few weeks

Think on a 12 car, the Conductor has to be near the middle of the train, because of the platforms at Coulsdon South and Merstham. Its front 10 cars only at Norwood Junction, used to be front 8 coaches only before last December's timetable change.

 

[Welshman]

Just out of interest, the famous "Atlantic Coast Express" from London Waterloo to North Devon and Cornwall used to regularly have a five-way split. And all in the days when you needed shunters and extra locomotives.

Unfortunately, it ceased running in 1964.

 

[LE Greys]

Just out of interest, the famous "Atlantic Coast Express" from London Waterloo to North Devon and Cornwall used to regularly have a five-way split. And all in the days when you needed shunters and extra locomotives.

Unfortunately, it ceased running in 1964.

Both the ACE and the Cornish Riviera Express used to have an eight-way split.

Atlantic Coast Express

• Bude
• Padstow
• Ilfracombe
• Torrington
• Plymouth
• Exmouth (via Budleigh Salterton)
• Sidmouth
• Seaton

Cornish Riviera Express

• Penzance
• St Ives
• Falmouth
• Newquay
• Kingsbridge
• Ilfracombe (slip)
• Minehead (slip)
• Weymouth (slip)

Both could start from their respective stations at fifteen-coach monsters. The ACE finished at Padstow as a three-coach local, while the Limited rolled into Penzance as a six-coach semi-fast. The two Ilfracombe portions actually combined at Barnstaple, necessitating a spectacular double-headed start with the up portion climbing the 'Ilfracombe Mountain'. Still, in those days every coach had roof boards, and the guard would always put passengers right if they were in the wrong coach, before departure on the Limited, since slips had no gangways. Finding oneself in the wrong coach then was not easy, although I'm sure it still happened.

The only three-way split I can think of today is the Highland Sleeper, although that's nothing compared with the days when the Highlandman served places such as Elgin, Aviemore and Peterhead in addition to Aberdeen. Still, it's hard to get into the wrong sleeping car.

 

[Kali]

Nine-way for the ACE if you count dropping the catering section at Exeter Central...

Through journey times to the Cornish coast were a little unspectacular

 

[Oliver]

At Sidmouth Junction some services attached the through coach from Sidmouth to up trains by detaching the train loco and using that to attach the coach to the front of the formation, rather than using a shunter to attach it to the rear. I think this was a very unusual way of combining through coaches - can anyone name other examples?

This link shows the down ACE at that station, waiting while the through coach is detached from the rear. https://picasaweb.google.com/100148...tDownAtlanticCoastExpress#5602216672108411842

 

[Welshman]

Similar, but not quite, was the situation at Low Moor when portions from Leeds Central and Bradford Exchange were combined to form a through service to Manchester Victoria/Liverpool Exchange.

The 3-coach portion from Leeds[dep.x55] arrived first about x17, and the tank engine was detached from the train, leaving the coaches in the main platform. Then, about x22, the portion from Bradford[dep.x15] arrived [with the train engine] in the loop platform the other side of the island platform where the Leeds portion was waiting, then drew forward over the junction and reversed on to the front of the awaiting coaches from Leeds. The completed train then departed westwards about x28.

Thank you, by the way, to Kali and LE Greys for correcting me re the ACE. I hadn't realised it was so multi-portioned!

 

[30907]

At Sidmouth Junction some services attached the through coach from Sidmouth to up trains by detaching the train loco and using that to attach the coach to the front of the formation, rather than using a shunter to attach it to the rear.

I think we can safely say "all services" as there was only one a day except on summer Saturdays (when most were complete trains from the branch):
the move at the London end was covered by signals (though not facing point locks), whereas the country end crossover was worked from a ground frame;
in addition, the branch train that detached the weekday through coaches continued to Exeter without waiting for the London

On the original topic, the Exeter Central splits were regularly genuine 3-way ones, plus changing engines and often attaching a strengthening vehicle to each portion.

 

[D1009]

.

I recall a train in the early 1960s (possibly even earlier) down the North Wales Coast called The Welshman, probably summer only with portions for Llandudno, Porthmadog, Pwllheli etc.

 

[Ibex]

Interesting post about the Cornish 9 way split trains, most bizarre!

I can't provide timings off the top of my head but Arriva Trains Wales run a three way splitting train Monday to Friday. Birmingham International to Shrewsbury, Holyhead and Llandudno Junction...

It's a 6 car from Birmingham International. The front 2 detach and terminate at Shrewsbury, and the rear 2 coaches detach and terminate at Llandudno Junction, so anybody that's going to Bangor or Holyhead (the actual destination) has to be in the middle two coaches if boarding at Birmingham.

Nightmare for the CIS at the stations along the route to advertise (infact it physically can't) so if you didn't know this happened you'd be none the wiser.

There's also a Southern PM peak service which is London Victoria to Seaford, Eastbourne and Ore.

 

[SprinterMan]

Interesting post about the Cornish 9 way split trains, most bizarre!

I can't provide timings off the top of my head but Arriva Trains Wales run a three way splitting train Monday to Friday. Birmingham International to Shrewsbury, Holyhead and Llandudno Junction...

It's a 6 car from Birmingham International. The front 2 detach and terminate at Shrewsbury, and the rear 2 coaches detach and terminate at Llandudno Junction, so anybody that's going to Bangor or Holyhead (the actual destination) has to be in the middle two coaches if boarding at Birmingham.

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C36013/2012/11/19

Adam

 

[Welshman]

Interesting post about the Cornish 9 way split trains, most bizarre!

I can't provide timings off the top of my head but Arriva Trains Wales run a three way splitting train Monday to Friday. Birmingham International to Shrewsbury, Holyhead and Llandudno Junction...

It's a 6 car from Birmingham International. The front 2 detach and terminate at Shrewsbury, and the rear 2 coaches detach and terminate at Llandudno Junction, so anybody that's going to Bangor or Holyhead (the actual destination) has to be in the middle two coaches if boarding at Birmingham.

I'm reluctant to correct your details after my own faux-pas earlier in this thread with the ACE, but I think you've got your fronts and rears the wrong way round!

The train in question, the 1309 ex Birmingham International, reverses at Chester, not Shrewsbury. So from Birmingham, the rear unit detatches at Shrewsbury, leaving the 2 front units to run to Llandudno Junction, reversing at Chester on the way. So by Llandudno Junction, it's what was the front set from Birmingham which gets left behind.

So you're right in the end, in that it's the middle set which goes right through.

Incidentally, the set detached at Llandudno Junction then forms 1625 M-F short-working to Chester, calling at all stations except Abergele and Shotton, allowing the following 1646 off the Junction [1544 ex Holyhead], to run non-stop to Chester, arriving 6 minutes after the stopper, at 1725.

I think that stopper is then used to strengthen the 1727 from Chester [1509 ex Birmingham International] as far again as Llandudno Junction, where it is again detached, to strengthen the returning 1832 off the Junction[1730 ex Holyhead], to Shrewsbury.

I don't know if it goes all the way through to Shrewsbury, or whether it is detached again at Chester, but I think its shuttling between Chester and Llandudno Junction during the tea-time peak, is a good example of ATW trying to meet demand with limited resources.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/C36013/2012/11/19

Adam

Interesting to note that this link has a '-D' ("Stops to detach vehicles") symbol at Llandudno Junction, but not at Shrewsbury.

 

[neodoughnut]

There used to be Sat Only 1220 WAT - PNZ. 9-car which would be first 3 to PNZ, middle 3 EXD, and rear 3 BRI. Booked nearly all stations west of BSK and would arrive around 20h30. Only ever done it once! Also longest train CLJ Platform 9 could accommodate without using SDO.

 

[Minstral25]

Hi All

This December timetable change sees a change to a particular service, the 1732 from London Bridge to Horsham/Tonbridge, currently a 12 car 377, splitting at Redhill, front 8 coaches to Horsham, rear 4 to Tonbridge. This change will now add a portion for Reigate, which means the service will split three ways at Redhill, front 4 coaches for Horsham, middle 4 for Tonbridge and rear 4 for Reigate.

Now this got me thinking, three way splits at the same location does seem quite bizarre, apart from the Highland Sleeper at Edinburgh, are there any other services that are BOOKED to have a three way split?

Selfish question - but does the Reigate portion splitting and returning to London allow an extra 4 cars on the 19:33 to Horsham via Redhill

 

[LE Greys]

At Sidmouth Junction some services attached the through coach from Sidmouth to up trains by detaching the train loco and using that to attach the coach to the front of the formation, rather than using a shunter to attach it to the rear. I think this was a very unusual way of combining through coaches - can anyone name other examples?

This link shows the down ACE at that station, waiting while the through coach is detached from the rear. https://picasaweb.google.com/100148...tDownAtlanticCoastExpress#5602216672108411842

Sometimes happened at Plymouth North Road, where if the incoming loco was a King (not permitted over Saltash Bridge) the through coach would come off with the loco and something else, a Castle, a Grange, a pair of 43XXs or whatever, would back down onto the remainder. The King would leave the coach in a bay and run back to Laira for servicing and turning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thank you, by the way, to Kali and LE Greys for correcting me re the ACE. I hadn't realised it was so multi-portioned!

My pleasure, I've always thought it fascinating. The summer Saturday version sometimes had to run as three separate trains, since it was so popular.

 

[Galvanize]

Selfish question - but does the Reigate portion splitting and returning to London allow an extra 4 cars on the 19:33 to Horsham via Redhill

The stock for the 1933 to Horsham comes up from East Grinstead, and will run as an 8 car instead of the current 6 car.

 

[matchmaker]

Not quite the same, but what about splitting & joining? On Sundays some Glasgow - Inverness services leave Queen Street combined with an Aberdeen service, split at Perth, and then join the Edinburgh - Inverness service!

 

[Liam]

Not quite the same, but what about splitting & joining? On Sundays some Glasgow - Inverness services leave Queen Street combined with an Aberdeen service, split at Perth, and then join the Edinburgh - Inverness service!

I am aware it used to happen, but I can't find any examples of this in the current timetable. Bear inmind that due to the latout of Perth Station the train would have to stop short of the station and split before entering the station.

 

[cle]

But nobody has provided an example when the one three way split happens at the same time, except for the OP's one.

Something splitting at Haywards Heath and then again at Worthing/Eastbourne isn't the same thing. That's two different splits in one journey.

 

[Eagle]

But nobody has provided an example when the one three way split happens at the same time, except for the OP's one.

And the Salisbury one in post #6.

 

[mister-sparky]

And the Salisbury one in post #6.

That doesn't count either because 1 portion goes to the depot, not another destination.

 

[Kali]

My pleasure, I've always thought it fascinating. The summer Saturday version sometimes had to run as three separate trains, since it was so popular.

I always have too. I wonder if the Plymouth/Cornish parts ever had to run via Newton Abbot ( like say, flooding at Cowley Bridge ); it seems to have been a regular thing for GW/SR services ( not just crews ) to swap routes to keep knowledge up. Waterloo-Exeter-Newton Abbot-Plymouth-Halwill-Bude would take all week, mind you

 

[LE Greys]

I always have too. I wonder if the Plymouth/Cornish parts ever had to run via Newton Abbot ( like say, flooding at Cowley Bridge ); it seems to have been a regular thing for GW/SR services ( not just crews ) to swap routes to keep knowledge up. Waterloo-Exeter-Newton Abbot-Plymouth-Halwill-Bude would take all week, mind you

Or vice versa if the sea was up at Dawlish.

 

[tsr]

This December timetable change sees a change to a particular service, the 1732 from London Bridge to Horsham/Tonbridge, currently a 12 car 377, splitting at Redhill, front 8 coaches to Horsham, rear 4 to Tonbridge. This change will now add a portion for Reigate, which means the service will split three ways at Redhill, front 4 coaches for Horsham, middle 4 for Tonbridge and rear 4 for Reigate.

This is going to be rather problematic if the service needs to be short-formed for whatever reason, or if congestion means one of the front two portions can't proceed forward - obviously this is the case, but at least somewhat less so, with the current arrangements.

In future, if the line to either Reigate or Tonbridge is blocked, it may be that the Horsham portion is made 8-car, and the rear 4-car portion proceeds to whichever destination is most readily available.

Also, I can imagine the driver/platform staff dialogues... "Draw forward, driver"... "I just haven't got room, I'll have to go to Earlswood"...