Three Bridges ASC

[Redder]

Hi, can anyone advise as to the main operational differences of TBASC and TBROC? Thank you.

 

[Sunset route]

Hi, can anyone advise as to the main operational differences of TBASC and TBROC? Thank you.

In one (the ASC) you work from a signalling control desk and display panel using buttons, the other (the ROC) you work using a keyboard, mouse and VDUs

 

[godfreycomplex]

TBASC - Grade 9. NX panel; Thornton Heath/Anerley to Brighton & various other bits and pieces (Horsham/Arun Valley/Redhill/basically everything around Croydon). Ranges from mildly busy to frenetic. No idea on roster
TBROC - Grade 8 (mostly). Westcad computer monitors. 12 hour roster. Various bits and pieces around the place - Eastbourne/East Coastway; Thameslink; Streatham; and (half way through migration at the moment) all the former London Bridge panel area (Charing Cross/Cannon Street to Hayes/Anerley/Mottingham/Elmstead Woods/Eltham/Woolwich Arsenal). Mostly busy urban railway but I believe there's ARS to help; but there's no disguising it can get hectic; but they're both good fun and very rewarding roles.
I don't work in either but some folk on here do; hopefully they'll be along to correct my waffle above!

 

[nom de guerre]

I believe there's ARS to help

Oxymoron?

IIRC one or more of the CX/LBG workstations don't have ARS. An ex-London Bridge colleague was told that certain moves are now more labour-intensive than they were at the ASC.

Sure our TBROC contingent can correct as appropriate!

 

[godfreycomplex]

Oxymoron?

IIRC one or more of the CX/LBG workstations don't have ARS. An ex-London Bridge colleague was told that certain moves are now more labour-intensive than they were at the ASC.

Sure our TBROC contingent can correct as appropriate!

One step forward; three steps backward...

 

[Sunset route]

TBASC - Grade 9. NX panel; Thornton Heath/Anerley to Brighton & various other bits and pieces (Horsham/Arun Valley/Redhill/basically everything around Croydon). Ranges from mildly busy to frenetic. No idea on roster

TBASC geographical coverage.

Anerley fringe with Three Bridges ROC (TL), Bromley Junction fringe (exclusive) with Victoria ASC (VC), Thornton Heath fringe (inclusive) with Three Bridges ROC (TVC), Waddon fringe (inclusive) with Victoria ASC (VC), Upper Warlilingam fringe with Oxted (OD), Caterham Branch, Tattenham Corner Branch, Godstone fringe with Ashford IECC (AD), Reigate fringe (exclusive) with Reigate (RG), Cooksbridge fringe (exclusive) with Lewes (LW), Falmer Tunnel fringe (inclusive) with Lewes (LW), Aldrington fringe with Lacing (LG), Betchworth Tunnel fringe with Dorking (CBK) and finally North Stoke Tunnel fringe (inclusive) with Arundel (AR).

Panels 1a to 6 (8 in total) to be fitted with ARS & TMS.

Currently 9 panels soon to become 10.

There is currently an 8hr roster covering all 9 panels, soon to become two new rosters of which still need to be drawn up, voted for, agreed between staff Reps & management and then implemented.

 

[Bromley boy]

TBASC geographical coverage.

Anerley fringe with Three Bridges ROC (TL), Bromley Junction fringe (exclusive) with Victoria ASC (VC), Thornton Heath fringe (inclusive) with Three Bridges ROC (TVC), Waddon fringe (inclusive) with Victoria ASC (VC), Upper Warlilingam fringe with Oxted (OD), Caterham Branch, Tattenham Corner Branch, Godstone fringe with Ashford IECC (AD), Reigate fringe (exclusive) with Reigate (RG), Cooksbridge fringe (exclusive) with Lewes (LW), Falmer Tunnel fringe (inclusive) with Lewes (LW), Aldrington fringe with Lacing (LG), Betchworth Tunnel fringe with Dorking (CBK) and finally North Stoke Tunnel fringe (inclusive) with Arundel (AR).

Panels 1a to 6 (8 in total) to be fitted with ARS & TMS.

Currently 9 panels soon to become 10.

There is currently an 8hr roster covering all 9 panels, soon to become two new rosters of which still need to be drawn up, voted for, agreed between staff Reps & management and then implemented.

This is very interesting. A couple of other questions, if you don't mind...

Do signallers working in a ASC/ROC ""sign" all panels, or are you limited to one or two?

From a driver's perspective I notice a big difference between London Bridge and Three Bridges. London Bridge seems to have more issues, signal failures etc. Also, under London Bridge, it's more common to come up against reds which immediately clear when you hit SG. I have always assumed this is down to workload of the signaller.

I imagine the older tech in use and lack of ARS must be factors in this?

Out of interest to what extent does ARS in modern ROCs enable you as a signaller to be completely "hands-off"?

 

[Sunset route]

This is very interesting. A couple of other questions, if you don't mind...

Do signallers working in a ASC/ROC ""sign" all panels, or are you limited to one or two?

From a driver's perspective I notice a big difference between London Bridge and Three Bridges. London Bridge seems to have more issues, signal failures etc. Also, under London Bridge, it's more common to come up against reds which immediately clear when you hit SG. I have always assumed this is down to workload of the signaller.

I imagine the older tech in use and lack of ARS must be factors in this?

Out of interest to what extent does ARS in modern ROCs enable you as a signaller to be completely "hands-off"?

Don't confuse the areas controlled TBROC and TBASC, as a driver for SE I presume? Then you'll be driving under the OLD L(B)ASC and TBROC. The old London Bridge ASC had two links, one covering panels 1 to 5 and the other panels 6 to 9. Now whether they have merged what's left at London Bridge into one link or kept the two links still separate I do not know. But you only sign for and work the panels in your own link.

The ROC I believe has five links at the moment, Sussex East Coastway (1 workstation), Thameslink Core (2 workstations), London Bridge Low Level ((central side (2 workstations)), Charing Cross (2 workstations) and Streatham (1 workstation)

TBASC currently has one link (9 panels).

 

[contrad!ction]

Do signallers working in a ASC/ROC ""sign" all panels, or are you limited to one or two?

Totally depends on the box, at my place we sign between 3 to 4 workstations depending on which link you're in. You can also learn/pass out on other workstations outside of your own link to help cover when they're short (but you aren't obliged to).

Out of interest to what extent does ARS in modern ROCs enable you as a signaller to be completely "hands-off"?

ARS does some things well and some things not so well. It will generally handle the routine running of trains when things are running reasonably well, under most circumstances. If things are running (very roughly) within 3-5 mins of their booked times it will handle junction conflicts ok and will generally regulate correctly according to the timetable or the schedule that has been entered.

What ARS cannot deal with is early or late running. If, for example, a stopper is running late and is booked before a fast at a junction (and is booked ahead of the fast) ARS will give preference to the stopper regardless of the stopping pattern of the fast. This can stitch you right up, especially if the fast is then following the stopper for some distance until you can get it past. We have exactly the same problems with late running freight.

If a train comes down severely late, ARS will hold everything and anything to run it first. With a fast service in the evening peak this may be what you want but with a 2500 ton freight, well...

Another problem is that ARS can only 'see' trains so far back into fringe boxes - usually in the region of 3-5 signal sections on approach to the first signal controlled by the ARS fitted box. This means if a train comes down early and is due to sit for other trains to pass first, but ARS cannot 'see' those trains (because they aren't close enough to be picked up) it will give preference to the early runner across the junction, which with a heavy freight can, again, stitch you up good and proper.

ARS is not programmed to set all routes either (for obvious reasons). It won't set routes into occupied platforms/sidings or sidings that are non-track circuited.

If you haven't protected a line blockage/T3/isolation etc...with reminders correctly and you've left the ARS sub-area on (both dangerous/disciplinable offences), ARS will happily pull straight into whatever it is you're trying to protect (ARS will not attempt to set routes to or from a signal you've placed a reminder on).

There's loads, loads more to it than that. ARS is a very complex and very misunderstood tool that under the right circumstances can make your life much easier as a signaller but can cause you all sorts of problems if you aren't careful. It's very much the case that we have to pre-empt what ARS is going to do and put reminders down/take trains out of ARS appropriately. Unfortunately you're never going to catch 100% of these circumstances (and once it's done it, with a 2-4 minute signal time out/changes of aspect it's often easier just to leave it with whatever it's decided and try and make the best of a bad situation) and so delays do happen.

(Incidentally, we have to pass out every workstation with the ARS off and we are under no circumstances obliged to use it).

 

[Bromley boy]

Thanks to both Sunset Route and contrad!ction for the illuminating replies.

To Sunset Route - yes, sorry I'm aware we are under the "new" three bridges. I've been shown around London Bridge, although a couple of panels have closed since my visit (Cannon St, possibly some others). It was quite an eye opener, as I believe some of the relay equipment still in use dates back to the 1930s. It's sad that it's closing in some ways although no doubt the ROC will offer higher levels of reliability.

Out of interest, are the guys at London Bridge being redeployed to Three Bridges?

At the risk of sounding a bit sad. I would be very keen to visit a ROC at some point, perhaps even shadow a signaller at their workstation to understand the job. I'm not sure how to go about arranging it, or if indeed it would be possible to do at all. I've been into a couple of absolute block boxes and even been allowed to throw signals and points (under strict guidance, of course).

To contradiction, that's fascinating, thanks.

How would you go about signalling a train from the start of its journey at a terminal station to leaving your panel? I'm assuming from when you receive the TRTS you are manually having to set the route, pulling off (no sniggering at the back )!controlled signals along the route as necessary?

And how would this be different between a panel box and a ROC (I'm aware of the most obvious differences being pushing buttons on a panel versus clicking a mouse on a computer terminal at a ROC. I assume more modern ASCs (Victoria?) are somewhere between the two.

 

[contrad!ction]

At the risk of sounding a bit sad. I would be very keen to visit a ROC at some point, perhaps even shadow a signaller at their workstation to understand the job. I'm not sure how to go about arranging it, or if indeed it would be possible to do at all. I've been into a couple of absolute block boxes and even been allowed to throw signals and points (under strict guidance, of course).

An important point here is that the term 'ROC' has no bearing on the type of signalling within the building (it's about the inclusion of TOC control and that sort of integration...)

Hence, a ROC and an IECC/SCC etc... may be using exactly the same type of workstation. Will send you a PM with some pictures/details etc to avoid spamming the forum.

How would you go about signalling a train from the start of its journey at a terminal station to leaving your panel? I'm assuming from when you receive the TRTS you are manually having to set the route, pulling off (no sniggering at the back )!controlled signals along the route as necessary?

And how would this be different between a panel box and a ROC (I'm aware of the most obvious differences being pushing buttons on a panel versus clicking a mouse on a computer terminal at a ROC. I assume more modern ASCs (Victoria?) are somewhere between the two.

Best way to really explain this is to have a go - download one of the free simsig simulations and have a play. They look very similar to an IECC workstation and the operation is very similar (some also have ARS on as well to play with).

AFAIK Victoria has a very similar type of panel to both London Bridge and Three Bridges (ASC). I've not worked a panel so I can't comment in depth but the only differences in route setting are that you're clicking a button on a screen rather than pushing a button on a panel.

 

[Redder]

Thank you, all very informative.