Or is that deliberate propaganda, designed to get people to support his occupation plan?
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Thoughts on the Trump presidency
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Hasn't really happened yet...
If Greenland is taken then NATO will collapse and a new No America club will need to be formed. US Forces will need to be expelled from all UK territory too, without notice and their departure should be televised.
Gloster
Veteran Member
I don’t know whether Putin has dirt on Trump, although it wouldn’t surprise me a bit. However, I don’t think it is really Trump who is really calling the shots here, but one or more of his handlers who are feeding him information that will make him (Trump) react in the way the backers want. Whether there is someone among the handlers who is knowingly working to the advantage of Russia sounds like a conspiracy theory, but frankly it strikes me as possible.
EDIT: ’or more’ added.
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Knowing the kind of people who make up the contemporary American far-right, it honestly wouldn't surprise me also.
brad465
Veteran Member
If a new No America club does form, Ukraine will have a far easier job joining that than NATO. While they wouldn't makeup for the military might of the US, not all US military resources were devoted to Europe, while Ukraine would bring battle-hardened knowledge. If starting from scratch I would suggest this new club would need to not admit Hungary and Slovakia either until they can prove they're not run by Russian sympathisers.
How the markets react on Monday morning will be interesting. The "liberation day" tariffs caused oil and the dollar to plunge, while US bond costs soared, which went a long way to causing Trump to TACO. I would expect similar tomorrow, especially if there is a belief that any of the countries affected by these tariffs will try dumping US bonds.
DoubleLemon
Member
There's a brilliant thread on Facebook with the consequences of what will happen the second unauthorised boots land in Greenland
by Brent Molnar.
It's from a left leaning perspective, and you can take that into account as it skirts close to the end of the planet, the outcome is not going to be that bad in my view, however I think a lot of it is very likely as it cancels the NATO agreement for every country. It becomes void.
I am quoting the whole thing as a lot of you don't have Facebook access.
Source: https://www.facebook.com/permalink....Gdihbz8bkgafgYwui78AGyDHMEl&id=61569521527172
The EU has been making a massive effort to remove its reliance on us supplied services. There's a replacement to visa / American Express being developed.
Having access cut off has been threatened by Trump before.
The one thing the EU has said would happen would be every US base removed from EU soil.
The next bit is my hunch. Almost the same day the work or formation of a NATO replacement which would include Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the countries like Ukraine.
I suspect a lot of the initial work was done under the guise of the EU Army.
by Brent Molnar.
It's from a left leaning perspective, and you can take that into account as it skirts close to the end of the planet, the outcome is not going to be that bad in my view, however I think a lot of it is very likely as it cancels the NATO agreement for every country. It becomes void.
I am quoting the whole thing as a lot of you don't have Facebook access.
The Suicide Pact: What Happens the Moment We Touch Greenland…
If the United States follows through on the threat to invade Greenland, we need to be crystal clear about what happens the next morning. This is not a real estate transaction or a routine military exercise. It is the geopolitical equivalent of pulling the pin on a grenade in a crowded elevator. The moment American boots hit the ground in Nuuk to seize territory from a fellow NATO member, the world as we know it ends. The consequences will not be temporary sanctions or angry letters. They will be total, permanent, and devastating.
The first domino to fall is the North Atlantic Treaty Organization itself. NATO is built on the sacred promise of Article 5, that an attack on one is an attack on all. If the U.S. attacks Denmark, we are not just breaking the treaty; we are triggering it against ourselves. NATO dissolves instantly. The alliance that kept the peace in Europe for 75 years evaporates, leaving the continent to rearm and realign against the new aggressor across the Atlantic. We don't just lose an ally; we create a unified enemy.
The military repercussions will be swift and humiliating. Europe will immediately demand the closure of every U.S. military base on the continent. Ramstein in Germany, Aviano in Italy, Lakenheath in the UK, all gone. Our ability to project power into the Middle East and Africa vanishes overnight. We will be evicted from the very soil we helped liberate and defended for decades, forced to retreat to our own shores as a fortress nation, isolated and friendless.
Then comes the economic nuclear option. The European Union is the largest single market in the world, and they will weaponize it. Europe will likely move to call in U.S. debt and dump their dollar reserves, sending the value of our currency into a death spiral. The U.S. economy, which relies on the dollar being the global reserve currency, will collapse. Inflation will make the post-COVID spikes look like a rounding error. Your savings will be worthless before the ink dries on the invasion orders.
Corporate America will face an extinction event. U.S. companies will be expelled from the European market. Apple, Google, McDonald's, and Tesla will see their assets seized or their operations banned. Trillions of dollars in market capitalization will be incinerated in minutes. The stock market will not just crash; it will close. We are talking about the complete de-globalization of American industry, cutting us off from the wealthiest consumers on the planet.
The skies will go silent. European aviation authorities will almost certainly ground all Boeing jets and ban U.S. airlines from their airspace. Transatlantic travel will cease. If you are in Paris or Berlin, you are stuck there. The logistical arteries that feed our supply chains will be severed. We will be cut off from European medicine, machinery, and technology. We will be an island nation in the worst possible sense.
The cultural isolation will be just as stinging. The International Olympic Committee and FIFA will have no choice but to bar the United States from competition, just as they did with Russia. There will be no World Cup matches in New Jersey. There will be no Team USA in the Olympics. We will be treated as a pariah state, unwelcome on the global stage, forced to watch the world celebrate without us.
For individual Americans, the consequences will be personal and painful. Visa-free travel to Europe will end immediately. Americans currently living or working in Europe will lose their legal protections and residency status. They will become persona non grata, potentially facing deportation or internment. The "blue passport" that used to open every door will suddenly be a red flag at every border crossing.
This is the end of trust, and it does not reset. You cannot invade a democratic ally and then say "my bad" four years later. The psychological break will be permanent. Europe will realize that the United States is no longer a partner but a predator. They will build their own defense architecture, their own financial systems, and their own alliances that specifically exclude us. The West will continue, but the United States will no longer be part of it.
Invading Greenland is not a show of strength; it is an act of national suicide. We are trading our reputation, our economy, and our security for a frozen island and a handful of minerals we can't even process. The price of this real estate deal is everything we built over the last century. If we cross this line, there is no going back. We will be the lonely superpower, ruling over nothing but our own decline.
I need your help. If this reporting matters to you, please subscribe or donate today. Your direct support is the only thing keeping this work alive. Facebook has frozen my main page, severing my ability to reach over 74,000 followers. Independent journalism has no safety net.
https://youtube.com/@brent_molnar
Source: https://www.facebook.com/permalink....Gdihbz8bkgafgYwui78AGyDHMEl&id=61569521527172
The EU has been making a massive effort to remove its reliance on us supplied services. There's a replacement to visa / American Express being developed.
Having access cut off has been threatened by Trump before.
The one thing the EU has said would happen would be every US base removed from EU soil.
The next bit is my hunch. Almost the same day the work or formation of a NATO replacement which would include Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the countries like Ukraine.
I suspect a lot of the initial work was done under the guise of the EU Army.
martin butler
Member
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- 9 Oct 2018
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- 883
What will happen is all hardware will be seized, troops minus equipment will be put on chartered aircraft and flown out, leaving behind quite a bit of kit, that we could then gift to someone who might need it, or even use it ourselves, RAF F15 Eagle? inflight tankers, AWS? and the same can happen across every US european base, then the sell off of US debt, collapsing the economy, Every US Ambasidor, nieeds to be called into the foreigh office of every Nato country, and told in plain languige, should you carry through with this, the moment american troops land in greenland, we will close every one of your bases,
SuspectUsual
Established Member
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The people I feel sorry for are the civil servants who have to try and keep up with Trump’s nonsense and then try and implement it. Tariffs on top of tariffs on top of tariffs
Looking past the hysteria the Greenland question has come up repeatedly before. As such and recognising the resources of the US, and the yearly improved access to the arctic for shipping it’s not entirely surprising it’s come to a head. There’s also the issue that the US has never liked defending European colonial territories, this stance goes back to WW2. What is certain is that Greenland is strategically important to the US and NATO and European NATO is far away and lacks the resources to defend it. With warming opening up more opportunities for shipping, military and civilian, someone is going to have to provide support for safe navigation up there. Currently there is nothing. Regarding mineral resources whatever may (or may not) be there seems to be either small time, uneconomical to extract or just technically impossible currently.
Surely the questions really are, firstly in private how much does Denmark want to retain Greenland? Secondly what do the Greenlanders want?
I don’t see Greenland as being more than a millstone to Denmark, they support it to the tune of €750m PA. Conversely the Greenlanders are 90% ethnically Inuit and don’t seem to see themselves as Danish in any way. They appear to like the idea of independence but seem to accept it as impractical.
Donny needs to prepare a deal for Denmark and the Greenlanders. For the Greenlanders, cash payments? Sovereign wealth fund for the proceeds of resource extraction? Guarantee of investment in public services? Similar healthcare guarantees to now? This should then be put to the Greenlanders in a referendum. What Denmark wants really doesn’t matter, I’d assume compensation will be in $$$. Lots of $$$.
I don’t appreciate the hard man bullying rhetoric by Trump but Greenland being administered by the US does make a lot of sense.
Surely the questions really are, firstly in private how much does Denmark want to retain Greenland? Secondly what do the Greenlanders want?
I don’t see Greenland as being more than a millstone to Denmark, they support it to the tune of €750m PA. Conversely the Greenlanders are 90% ethnically Inuit and don’t seem to see themselves as Danish in any way. They appear to like the idea of independence but seem to accept it as impractical.
Donny needs to prepare a deal for Denmark and the Greenlanders. For the Greenlanders, cash payments? Sovereign wealth fund for the proceeds of resource extraction? Guarantee of investment in public services? Similar healthcare guarantees to now? This should then be put to the Greenlanders in a referendum. What Denmark wants really doesn’t matter, I’d assume compensation will be in $$$. Lots of $$$.
I don’t appreciate the hard man bullying rhetoric by Trump but Greenland being administered by the US does make a lot of sense.
While I don't think the collapse of NATO would be unlikely in the case of taking Greenland by force, I think it's equally likely that it would continue with passive rejection of US sovereignty. In the immediate aftermath European states would still need NATO protection and there isn't a replacement ready to go. Thereafter there might be discussions, but it wouldn't be like Russian expansionism (i.e. where there's an obvious "next place to invade" / border creep) and the alliance would continue to be in US and European members' collective interests. There might also be hope that a future US regime would hand it back.
Defend what and from whom? Assuming you mean from Russia, how do they get to invade Greenland without coming into range of "European NATO" and you seem to forget that "Canadian NATO" is even closer to Greenland than the USA.
Gloster
Veteran Member
The Greenlanders would like to be independent, but know that if they did they could not afford the generous welfare system which is currently backed by Denmark. They do not trust the US to provide an even remotely equivalent system. So they will stick with their current arrangement, but with the possibility that maybe…perhaps…you never know, one day they will get independence. They do not want to become an American colony and their wishes should bring an end to any rational argument.
Greenland belongs to the Greenlanders. Polling shows they don't want to be American or an American colony.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
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What on earth are you smoking.
It makes no more sense than them claiming land from other European countries.
They much much do not want to be American.
I wouldnt be naive. Trump had already talked about wanting Canada. Giving these two things its fairly obvious he has zero respect for other countries independence and just wants whatever looks or sounds good in his head.
Annetts key
Established Member
I'm not sure if you have been paying attention or not to this subject.
The situation is that in the past (cold war period) the U.S.A. had in the order of 15000 military personnel in Greenland spread across at least six bases (maybe up to ten). The U.S.A. have reduced this over time to only around 150 military personnel based at a single base. They were not told to leave, they just down sized (to save money). Under an existing treaty, the U.S.A. could go back to these kind of numbers. So the reason given by Trump of security is completely incorrect.
Secondly, there is no evidence that Russian or Chinese ships are sailing anywhere near Greenland on a regular basis. The Russian icebreakers have enough trouble keeping the shipping lane north of Russia open.
Third, Canada and Iceland, both NATO members are far nearer Greenland than the U.S.A. is.
Fourth, in a poll, 85% of Greenlanders don't want to become part of the U.S.A.
Fifth, the U.S.A. has less icebreaker ships than the Europeans.
As the far North shipping lanes become more accessible they will become very strategically important. China and Russia will have access to Greenland, especially the North at that point. The far north gives access to the Atlantic from the Pacific. Suez and Panama will no longer be the choke points they are today
Greenland is a European colonial territory. Colonial assets have always rankled with the US. They were very resistant to defending Pacific European colonial territory during WW2, I think there’s a similar stance here.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
They don’t know what the US will offer yet. It’s their right to reject it. For what it’s worth the Greenlanders seem to have been treated quite badly be
Denmark historically.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Greenland belongs to the Greenlanders. it doesn’t seem like they want to be Danish particularly, they are ethnically Inuit.
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Puerto Rico, Guam, and American Samoa have entered the chat.
nlogax
Established Member
Funny how Trump is so focused on stopping Greenland falling into the hands of China or Russia. Imagine if he knew there was a mere two and a half mile strait separating US territory from Russian territory. He'd have (another) stroke.
I didn’t say it was logical. They had their own colonial adventure on-going in the Philippines pre WW2.
Annetts key
Established Member
And they have their own government and parliament. There was a "Greenland Self-Government Act" (GSGA) in 2009.
Denmark is responsible for Greenland's defence. It also retains control of citizenship, monetary policy, security policies, and foreign affairs.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
but they are cool with American colonial assets yeah?
The USA have the authority to station as many armed forces people as they like on Greenland. If they are worried about security why not simply "surge" 20/30/50K soldiers there instantly? It is almost like that "security" excuse is nonsense.
Also: Demark is a NATO country FFS. They aren't going to hand that territory over to the Russians! The USA already control it in a military sense.
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Annetts key
Established Member
Anyone want to suggest that the U.S.A. hand back Alaska to Russia? Or return the various states or part of the states back to Mexico (see the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo).
Good job that Denmark and by extension Greenland are covered by NATO and that if the US wanted to increase the amount of defence installations there closer to it's previous Cold War levels (which were orders of magnitude higher than what is there now) it wouldn't have been a problem for either Greenland or Denmark. If there were realistic security concerns all the necessary provisions were already in place to allow for Greenland to be better protected.
Of course now it probably would be an issue because the US has threatened to invade Greenland rather than behave like an ally and friend.
WelshBluebird
Established Member
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- 5,608
So we agree they do not want to be American? So any talk of America talking Greenland by force or through money is an insane and war mongering as the current Russian occupation of parts of Ukraine.
brad465
Veteran Member
Will Americans get a say in any funding given directly to Greenlanders? It'll be their taxes after all, especially if what Greenlanders get is more generous than contiguous US citizens get.
Annetts key
Established Member
We already know what the right in U.S. politics think of government funded healthcare for U.S. citizens, does anyone believe that a future U.S. government would honour any agreement made?
DarloRich
Veteran Member
whilst agreeing in principle it isn't that straight forward. For instance, our nuclear deterrent relies on American technology and manufacturing. I cant see any UK government being keen to give that up.