Thoughts on Biometric Ticketing

[centraltrains]

This thread is meant for discussion of the pros/cons/techniques that biometric ticketing systems may introduce if they were ever to be introduced.


I like the idea of Biometric Ticketing – the thought of not having to carry around a piece of paper or a charged phone to prove you’ve paid to travel – oneself being the proof of purchase.

I imagine the technical methods for this kind of technology would be via facial or iris recognition. I’m not sure how accurate these systems scale on large populations; however, some scale usage of such technologies can be seen with China using these kinds of systems in order to enforce their less liberal society rules.


There seem to be a few American facial ticketing systems being developed for sporting events:
https://findbiometrics.com/new-popi...yments-ticketing-international-arenas-042106/
https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.c...04/01/Technology/Mets-facial-recognition.aspx


I know many people would have privacy concerns with these kinds of systems and it would be interesting to discuss these. I think I’m quite unusual in being the kind of person who opts-in to tracking & personalised services etc.

For the purposes of this discussion I would like to consider biometric ticketing as an additional ticketing option, rather than an only ticketing method.

 

[SargeNpton]

How would identical twins fare?

How would you get it to work for 5-year olds who refuse to look at the camera?

Those whose hairstyle covers their face or those who are wearing sunglasses?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How would identical twins fare?

How would you get it to work for 5-year olds who refuse to look at the camera?

Those whose hairstyle covers their face or those who are wearing sunglasses?

It is generally a more difficult problem to identify someone through a facial photo than it is to use it as a confirmatory thing that someone is one person (as phone unlocking does).

Identical twins are typically not completely identical to the millimetre. Typically this sort of thing uses measurements of the triangle between eyes and nose*, and the exact positions and sizes of those are affected by environmental factors (e.g. nutrition) as well as genetics.

Those whose hairstyle obscured their face or who were wearing sunglasses would, as per those biometric passport gates, need to deal with that for the brief period of passing the gateline or being otherwise identified.

* I'm waiting for the RUK Standard Minority to be wheeled out, only this time adding significant facial disfigurement rendering this not possible. The answer there, as usual, is that it doesn't need to work for everyone provided there are alternatives, or that it is sometimes cheaper to offer completely free travel to such people as they're very few in number.

 

[SynthD]

This sounds like e tickets with extra work. If the ticket is in a wallet, app or email on a phone it is likely a ticket behind biometrics.

Anything gained on that is probably an reduction in rights, like transferring tickets, not being personally tracked.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This sounds like e tickets with extra work. If the ticket is in a wallet, app or email on a phone it is likely a ticket behind biometrics.

Anything gained on that is probably an reduction in rights, like transferring tickets, not being personally tracked.

Transferring/reselling tickets is now allowed, subject to conditions e.g. transferring only a whole unused ticket (e.g. not only a return portion of a return ticket) and not reselling for more than face value.

 

[SynthD]

Yes. Biometrics, depending on how it’s implemented, would take away that right.

 

[Mikw]

Chilling, especially if some sort of Chinese style credit system starts in this country. Best to stick with normal and e-tickets really.

 

[Paul Jones 88]

I like my good old fashioned paper tickets, nothing to go wrong.

 

[centraltrains]

This sounds like e tickets with extra work. If the ticket is in a wallet, app or email on a phone it is likely a ticket behind biometrics.

I suppose there are different types of "ticket" in use today, automatic ticketing where the ticket are worked out post-journey (as per oyster/contactless/smart cards) and manual ticketing where you manually buy a specific ticket type.
While automatic ticketing being more widespread across the country is probabbly another topic, I imagine it would be slightly more convenient with biometric ticketing than smart cards - especially if it supported both automatically detecting a purchased manual ticket vs automatic tickets (again same would apply with a smart card ticket).

Anything gained on that is probably an reduction in rights, like transferring tickets, not being personally tracked.

Maybe other policy changes would be able to rebalance these, such as free refunds for biometric tickets supported by the availability of specific proof available into if the ticket was used or not (perhaps if you installed a gateless/camera only barrier at stations where there isn't space for barriers - so long as it isn't a compulsory ticket area).

I like my good old fashioned paper tickets, nothing to go wrong.

I love paper tickets too! I think the main concern around physical tickets is losing them (especially now that till-roll tickets don't fit nicely into my wallet!). For me, e-tickets introduced too much anxiety around keeping phone charged if I'm unable to print them out beforehand, and I think it's just interesting to discuss how technology could see more ticket mediums introduced in the future.

 

[Ken H]

Why on earth would I want the railway know that I had travelled from A to B? There are too many people tracking everything we do these days.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I could see a facial recognition system being introduced on a metro system, at least as an alternative to smartcards or contactless.

 

[Brush 4]

It is very weird how younger people don't care about their privacy or anonymity. As Ken H said, why do the railway need to know who we are when buying a ticket from A-B or perhaps G. Same with shopping, it's none of their business. Next step will be why are we travelling there/buying this? It's called mission creep or by stealth. Anonymous cash then cards with PIN, then contactless, then fingerprint ID, now facial recognition. Gradually, bit by bit, it creeps into your personal private life. GPS, ANPR, CCTV, soon with extra added facial recognition, which is now offered as standard in new replacement systems for shops etc. Vehicle cams, bus cams, train cams, police personal cams. Gradually by stealth, it covers more of our lives, treating all of us as suspects....of what exactly? Cams just film crime, fat lot of use that is. It's too late by then, the person is dead/injured/robbed. They don't prevent it happening, which is the name of the game surely? This of course lead inexorably to crime prediction, who might commit a crime?

 

[LOL The Irony]

An authoritarian's wet dream.

 

[Energy]

The chance of it making a mistake is still pretty high, most who have used something like a door access reader which uses fingerprints will know that sometimes it can take a couple tries before it works.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I love paper tickets too! I think the main concern around physical tickets is losing them (especially now that till-roll tickets don't fit nicely into my wallet!).

It really isn't that much of an issue. Millions of people have done it without problem for the best part of two centuries.

I just can't fathom why people want companies to harvest as much personal information on them as possible. Walking around with location detectors on their phones, wanting facial recognition on public transport systems. The benefits for the companies are obvious but what are the benefits for the individual? And the answer isn't it means you don't have to carry a small piece of paper in your wallet.