Thoughts about level crossings

[Peter Sarf]

Quite likely a flashing light is easier to detect, but once that light is detected there is then a further step, where the person then has to interpret what that flashing light means and what their response should be.

A typical road driver encounters a steady red light so frequently that their response is automatic, there's no uncertainty. Encountering flashing red wig-wags is much rarer, it can be years or decades between drivers seeing them flashing and needing to respond, hence there is not the same continual reinforcement and automatic response. It doesn't help that on the roads when flashing lights are used, the most common situation is a flashing amber, which means either caution hazard or caution and stop if you can see a pedestrian crossing but otherwise proceed with caution.

The other issue, is the absence of a permissive green light on the wig-wags, to draw attention to their presence on approach and to emphasis that the permission to proceed has been removed, as it changes from green, to amber, to flashing red.

This really sums up what I am trying to say. A flashing red is going to require more interpretation than the regularly encountered steady red. Even a driver very familiar with the highway code is going to do a double take at a flashing red (unless they see them often) whereas a steady red is so common its purpose invokes a deep seated instinct - STOP. That means a risk - not sure for how long but it is a risk. And of course a more common flashing amber is not a simple stop so there is no similarity to the logic.

 

[stuu]

This really sums up what I am trying to say. A flashing red is going to require more interpretation than the regularly encountered steady red. Even a driver very familiar with the highway code is going to do a double take at a flashing red (unless they see them often) whereas a steady red is so common its purpose invokes a deep seated instinct - STOP. That means a risk - not sure for how long but it is a risk. And of course a more common flashing amber is not a simple stop so there is no similarity to the logic.

I would disagree in the strongest possible terms

Anyone driving along an unfamiliar route will be seeing hundreds of new objects and needing tk respond to them in real time in order to make it safely to their destination. That's what driving involves. I find the idea that people would see a flashing red light, and in almost all cases a moving barrier, and not know how to respond to be laughably unlikely. People who speed past the lights know exactly what they are doing in 99.9% of cases. And the others shouldn't be on the road at all.

 

[Gaelan]

Completely threw me when I first came across one of these at the exit ramp from a freeway in Florida. I had no idea what to do!

An excellent example of why sensible design matters, instead of expecting every driver to have the highway code (equivalent) memorized!

 

[NoRoute]

I would disagree in the strongest possible terms

Anyone driving along an unfamiliar route will be seeing hundreds of new objects and needing tk respond to them in real time in order to make it safely to their destination. That's what driving involves. I find the idea that people would see a flashing red light, and in almost all cases a moving barrier, and not know how to respond to be laughably unlikely. People who speed past the lights know exactly what they are doing in 99.9% of cases. And the others shouldn't be on the road at all.

Why do you find the idea of human error so unbelievable? Human error is everywhere, we're talking about millions of drivers of differing competencies, differing experience, differing mental capabilities. And we're discussing a traffic signal which is relatively uncommon and rarely encountered, so it's perfectly feasible that some portion of motorists may not know how to properly respond.

For comparison, just consider train drivers, skilled professionals, with extensive training and route knowledge and they make mistakes. They miss signals they see day in day out, passing them at danger. They look at the wrong signals and respond incorrectly. They suffer lapses of concentration.

 

[43066]

It is very different. If you enter a level crossing that is closing or closed with the red wig wags flashing, there is a real chance of death or serious injury every time, as there is a train on approach, potentially a matter of seconds away. If you break the speed limit, there isn’t.

People don’t always appreciate this - especially with AHB crossings. I sign a couple in the midlands where linespeed towards them is 80mph and you can see cars driving across as you approach! There’s no signal protection and if someone zig zags around the barriers you will simply plough straight into them - the awful incident in Sussex a few years ago where a grandfather managed to kill himself and his grandson by driving round AHB barriers into the path of a train springs to mind.

we're talking about millions of drivers of differing competencies, differing experience,

But to drive a car you need to pass a driving test to prove a minimum level of competence (or whatever is needed for someone to transfer a foreign license across). Ergo there is *no* excuse for any driver not understanding what wig wags mean. Anyone who does not is not competent to drive on UK roads.

Why is it so hard to accept that people who jump level crossing barriers know exactly what they’re doing, and choose to take the risk because they’re impatient/stupid?

They miss signals they see day in day out, passing them at danger. They look at the wrong signals and respond incorrectly. They suffer lapses of concentration.

This is a completely irrelevant comparison because trains are not driven on line of sight and the lapse of concentration can occur well before the red is in view. Someone driving a car *always* has a choice whether or not to jump wig wags.

A train driver who *deliberately* spads will be out of a job, and quite possibly looking at a prison sentence.

 

[Llanigraham]

Bear in mind I am not clinging to exactly what the highway code prescribes regarding flashing reds. I am pointing out how people might instinctively react and that a solid red at a level crossing might be beneficial.

Those words confirm what I have said, that you really do need to read and UNDERSTAND what the Highway Code says, and to undertake some extended driver training.
And you might also note that you seem to be the only one who is saying this about flashing wig wags, and is certainly the opposite of what the experts from the Emergency Services and all the driving standards agencies is saying.

(And yes I have undertaken several different extended driving training, including "blue light/rapid response", and controlled a level crossing and 3 UWCs)

 

[alxndr]

It's not just the wigwags protecting the crossing though is it? Even if flashing red lights are a problem, which I really don't think they are seeing as red is a common warning symbol in everyday life, flashing lights aren't an uncommon warning symbol in everyday life, and their meaning is taught, the wigwags aren't the only thing protecting the crossing.

Aside from unbarriered crossings, which are becoming increasingly rare, and the 4-6 seconds before they start to lower, there is also either a big red and white barrier across the road or a big red and white barrier coming down into the road. Even if the lights don't trigger a "stop" instinct an obstruction either already in your path or heading for it really should. There's also the yodalarm sounding for at least the time that the amber light is lit and the barriers are being lowered, which although intended for pedestrians, is generally audible in a vehicle as well, which gives further clues to the fact you're approaching danger even if you've never heard if before. Level crossings are also preceded by warning signs.

The odds of someone:

• Arriving either within the 4-6 second window where the wigwags are showing but the barriers are not lowering or at an unbarriered crossing
• Not hearing the yodalarm
• Not having the common sense to very quickly determine that passing between two sets of flashing red lights while a warning sounds is a poor idea
• and not having any other vehicles in front to copy

is pretty small!

 

[NoRoute]

But to drive a car you need to pass a driving test (or whatever is needed for someone to transfer a foreign license across). Ergo there is *no* excuse for not understanding what wig wags mean. Anyone who does not is not competent to drive on UK roads.

Why is it so hard to accept that people who jump level crossing barriers know exactly what they’re doing, and choose to take the risk because they’re impatient/stupid?

I accept that a portion, likely a large portion of those drivers crossing level crossing at danger are committing a deliberate violation. But I do not accept that every driver out there on the roads today, 100.000000000% has perfect knowledge and recall of the highway code and knows how to respond, so some portion of the errors will not be deliberate violations, they will be knowledge errors, not knowing how to properly respond.

I recall there was some research on level crossing safety which found that a portion of drivers did not know how to respond, incorrectly interpreting the flashing lights as a hazard. Which is why we have signs on the approach to wig-wags, telling drivers to stop if lights are showing, precisely because some drivers did not know what to do. We do not have 'Stop if light is red' signs on road traffic lights.

This is a completely irrelevant comparison because trains are not driven on line of sight and the lapse of concentration can occur well before the red is in view. Someone driving a car *always* has a choice whether or not to jump wig wags.

A train driver who *deliberately* spads will be out of a job, and quite possibly looking at a prison sentence.

The point is that even professional drivers with significant experience and training are capable of human error, so to believe that motorists are somehow immune and that every violation is deliberate, with no space for human error is not realistic.

 

[43066]

The point is that even professional drivers with significant experience and training are capable of human error, so to believe that motorists are somehow immune and that every violation is deliberate, with no space for human error is not realistic.

But, absent a mechanical failure or medical issue, it is impossible to drive through wig wags “by accident”; it is aways a deliberate act.

Either the person has taken a deliberate risk or, if they genuinely don’t understand what they mean (and I do not believe there is a meaningful number of people in this category), they are grossly negligent in their lack of knowledge - and that’s still their fault!

 

[Lewisham2221]

Red light abuse (along with a long list of other motoring offences) is rife. People seem to increasingly believe that motoring laws are some sort of attack and restriction on their freedom, that their judgement is better and that any slight delay or inconvenience to them in the name of wider road safety is utterly outrageous.

Yes, there is a chance that a very small minority of drivers may be unfamiliar with level crossings and panic when they encounter one (and you can argue until the cows come home about whether they should be on the road, but unfortunately the fact is that they are on the road). We're talking the kind of people that passed their test 30/40+ years ago and rarely drive anywhere other than 2 or 3 fixed routes, but one day find themselves making a different journey and come across a level crossing. Similarly new, inexperienced drivers, who may have passed their theory test several months prior, never encountered a level crossing on their lessons and then encounter one as they go and take advantage of their new found "freedom". Judging by the amount of mistakes I see experienced drivers making on a daily basis (I'm not saying I'm perfect either btw), I don't think it's entirely unlikely or unfeasible that somebody  might make a genuine mistake or panic or get confused.

All that said, I'm fairly confident that almost all level crossing abuse is by fairly experienced drivers who know exactly what they are doing and, unfortunately, I think the only thing that will stop them from doing it is a collision (or at least a very near miss) with a train.

 

[Bald Rick]

A couple of other points spring to mind.

1) Wig-Wag lights at Level Crossings (and fire stations, airports, lifting bridges etc) are not the only examples of flashing red lights on the roads. There are also the overhead matrix signs which can (and do) flash red alternate left/right lights to indicate ‘Stop’ / lane closed. That’s not ambiguous either.

2) Living where I do, there are very few highway level crossings near me, and I rarely have cause to cross them. In fact the most often I use a level crossing on the road is when I’m out cycling. Yet every LX makes me nervous, and I’m always extra cautious when crossing one, making doubly sure there’s no train coming.

 

[Krokodil]

A typical road driver encounters a steady red light so frequently that their response is automatic, there's no uncertainty. Encountering flashing red wig-wags is much rarer, it can be years or decades between drivers seeing them flashing and needing to respond, hence there is not the same continual reinforcement and automatic response.

This really sums up what I am trying to say. A flashing red is going to require more interpretation than the regularly encountered steady red. Even a driver very familiar with the highway code is going to do a double take at a flashing red (unless they see them often) whereas a steady red is so common its purpose invokes a deep seated instinct - STOP.

I think that we've established that at least 90% of those who are caught misusing level crossings are those who cross them regularly. Their familiarity breeds contempt, they know full well that red means "stop" (yes, even if it's flashing) but make a conscious decision to go anyway, because they would rather risk their lives than lose a few minutes. Quite a few foot crossings have red/green miniature warning lights (so basically the same as traffic signals) but you still see people brazenly ignoring these, even as a train very visibly approaches.

Why do you find the idea of human error so unbelievable?

Because after several years of listening to people's excuses of why they haven't got a ticket/have got the wrong ticket, I've learned to apply some critical thought and distinguish between genuine human error and blatant fraud. It's a transferrable skill, so when I look at footage of people flooring it through lowering barriers I can deduce to within a reasonable degree of accuracy that they knew exactly what they were doing.

I recall there was some research on level crossing safety which found that a portion of drivers did not know how to respond, incorrectly interpreting the flashing lights as a hazard.

And what do you do if you see a hazard ahead of you? You prepare to stop. You certainly don't floor it and slalom around it.

 

[Bald Rick]

I sign a couple in the midlands where linespeed towards them is 80mph and you can see cars driving across as you approach!

I remember about 30 years ago (car) driving up to one somewhere north east of Grantham, and seeing a train coming towards the crossing, but the sequence hadn’t started. I stopped anyway, and about 10sec later the sequence starte, and 30 sec after tha5 the train crossed.

 

[Krokodil]

The driver of this lorry knew exactly what he was doing

 

[Brubulus]

I've always thought that using a heavier barricade (like anti-vehicle barriers) could work and having them swing like traditional gates could further ensure that chancers do not get trapped. However there is obviously a risk with swing gates for trains in the event of failure and if trains are unable to stop in time. Cameras which identify the criminals who jump level crossings should be present at almost all crossings and if convicted they should subject to at least 12 months mandatory disqualification, plus some form of unpaid work for the railway.

 

[Lewisham2221]

A couple of other points spring to mind.

1) Wig-Wag lights at Level Crossings (and fire stations, airports, lifting bridges etc) are not the only examples of flashing red lights on the roads. There are also the overhead matrix signs which can (and do) flash red alternate left/right lights to indicate ‘Stop’ / lane closed. That’s not ambiguous either.

2) Living where I do, there are very few highway level crossings near me, and I rarely have cause to cross them. In fact the most often I use a level crossing on the road is when I’m out cycling. Yet every LX makes me nervous, and I’m always extra cautious when crossing one, making doubly sure there’s no train coming.

Not ambiguous, but again something which some drivers may not come across very often, potentially rarely enough for their reaction to be slightly delayed or erratic.

Also, slightly related but possibly straying slightly off topic, I maintain the opinion that I'm not convinced modern cars a conducive to encouraging safe and alert driving. The massive touch screen systems fitted in many are just asking for the driver to be distracted and the many "automated" type safety features lull drivers into a false sense of security.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Those words confirm what I have said, that you really do need to read and UNDERSTAND what the Highway Code says, and to undertake some extended driver training.
And you might also note that you seem to be the only one who is saying this about flashing wig wags, and is certainly the opposite of what the experts from the Emergency Services and all the driving standards agencies is saying.

(And yes I have undertaken several different extended driving training, including "blue light/rapid response", and controlled a level crossing and 3 UWCs)

I don't think you get my point. I KNOW what the highway code says about wig-wag red lights and I expect many other drivers do. BUT the big difference is the flashing reds are uncommon enough that encountering one does not have the same instant impact on a driver as the very common non-flashing red at traffic lights. The extra delay in thinking might not be significant but why not be consistent ?.

I know there are those who have every intention of breaking the rules and possibly are the vast majority of transgressors. Although I am beginning to wonder if they would so readily jump a non-flashing red ?. Just an after thought of mine there.

Would it hurt to have a non-flashing red at a railway level crossing along with the flashing ones ?.

Someone mentioned barriers. Of course not all crossing have barriers.

 

[Llanigraham]

All that said, I'm fairly confident that almost all level crossing abuse is by fairly experienced drivers who know exactly what they are doing and, unfortunately, I think the only thing that will stop them from doing it is a collision (or at least a very near miss) with a train.

In the 10 years I controlled a level crossing directly outside my Box I reported many drivers and also ignored many because I was too busy doing my job of signalling trains. Of the few cases that actually went to Court everyone of them was an experienced driver; they knew exactly what they were doing! We even had one on a race day when a driver of a horse box ignored the lights and drove onto the crossing in front of 4 BTP officers; he then had the audacity of initially pleading "not guilty"!
And don't start me on the number of drivers who would drive onto the crossing when their exit wasn't clear. I know of one signaller who bounced the barrier on the roof of a car that had done exactly that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Apr 2023 ==

I remember about 30 years ago (car) driving up to one somewhere north east of Grantham, and seeing a train coming towards the crossing, but the sequence hadn’t started. I stopped anyway, and about 10sec later the sequence starte, and 30 sec after tha5 the train crossed.

The first time I did a cab ride down the Marches route the approach to Leominster AHB at 80 mph and seeing all the traffic crossing frightened the heck out of me. The driver said you got used to it.

 

[HSTEd]

I understand people are concerned that a red light is different from a level crossing warning in that certain professional drivers (such as police and ambulances) are permitted to pass traffic lights under some circumstances, but not flashing light warnings.

Surely the sensible option would be to train the small number of professional drivers not to do this at a level crosisng (perhaps providing a sign below the red light explaining that this is a level crossing) than attempting to train the entire driver population about a rarely used signal?

In my parents home town I only know of two flashing light signals (at the fire and ambulance stations respectively) and I would very rarely drive past them. Indeed I would very rarely come across a flashing red light type signal at all.

 

[Llanigraham]

I don't think you get my point. I KNOW what the highway code says about wig-wag red lights and I expect many other drivers do. BUT the big difference is the flashing reds are uncommon enough that encountering one does not have the same instant impact on a driver as the very common non-flashing red at traffic lights. The extra delay in thinking might not be significant but why not be consistent ?.

I know there are those who have every intention of breaking the rules and possibly are the vast majority of transgressors. Although I am beginning to wonder if they would so readily jump a non-flashing red ?. Just an after thought of mine there.

Would it hurt to have a non-flashing red at a railway level crossing along with the flashing ones ?.

Someone mentioned barriers. Of course not all crossing have barriers.

If you say so, but that is the opposite of what all the experts I have had dealings with say, and having been involved with driver training at several charities there have been plenty of those!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Apr 2023 ==

I understand people are concerned that a red light is different from a level crossing warning in that certain professional drivers (such as police and ambulances) are permitted to pass traffic lights under some circumstances, but not flashing light warnings.

Surely the sensible option would be to train the small number of professional drivers not to do this at a level crosisng (perhaps providing a sign below the red light explaining that this is a level crossing) than attempting to train the entire driver population about a rarely used signal?

In my parents home town I only know of two flashing light signals (at the fire and ambulance stations respectively) and I would very rarely drive past them. Indeed I would very rarely come across a flashing red light type signal at all.

I don't think you realise just how many bodies are allowed to use blue lights.

 

[HSTEd]

I don't think you realise just how many bodies are allowed to use blue lights.

In October 2021 there were apparently 40.9 million full and 9.1 million provisional licences on issue.

Even if a million people drive blue light vehicles its still negligible next to that.

There are only ~142,000 territorial police officers in England and Wales apparently.

Apparently about 18,000 ambulance crew and ~25-30,000 operational fire amd rescue staff.

More people are employed by B&M than crew ambulances.

 

[LampPete]

I think that people that jump wig wags at the start of the sequence no exactly what they are doing and they know they are not even slightly risking their lives. You have a good few seconds of flashing reds before the barriers descend. And even then only on one side to start with so they know that if they dart around or just make it under in time the exit is clear. They know there is no chance of there being an approaching train as the barriers aren’t down yet so no risk to their life and it’s 3 mins before the train arrives anyway.
If you compare this to red traffic lights, almost straight the way there will be conflicting traffic or pedestrians in your way if you jump the lights. I bet the same people that jump wig wags will have a formula in their heads that allows 1 second of red light jumping at a traffic light because they know that will be “safe”.
The time this system fails is when they are away from the local LC and at a half barrier one in the middle of nowhere and they try the same trick going around the barriers knowing they have only just lowered so will be 3 mins at least as they get wiped out because it’s only 10 seconds until the train passes.
I disagree that anyone crosses by mistake. I think it’s all fully risk assessed by the driver so the only way of stopping it is to enforce it with cameras. It doesn’t need to be prison or 1000 fine or any of that just 3 points and mabye a level crossing version of a speed awareness for first time offenders? That way people are educated, we have protected the people who think that flashing red means drive faster as it will be explained to them why this is not the case.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I disagree that anyone crosses by mistake. I think it’s all fully risk assessed by the driver so the only way of stopping it is to enforce it with cameras. It doesn’t need to be prison or 1000 fine or any of that just 3 points and mabye a level crossing version of a speed awareness for first time offenders? That way people are educated, we have protected the people who think that flashing red means drive faster as it will be explained to them why this is not the case.

I disagree that cameras with a similar punishment to speed cameras are the solution. It only takes a read of a few comments on articles related to speed cameras on a local news social media account to see just how many people would see this as "just another way to steal money from hard working, tax paying motorists"

 

[zwk500]

I understand people are concerned that a red light is different from a level crossing warning in that certain professional drivers (such as police and ambulances) are permitted to pass traffic lights under some circumstances, but not flashing light warnings.

Surely the sensible option would be to train the small number of professional drivers not to do this at a level crosisng (perhaps providing a sign below the red light explaining that this is a level crossing) than attempting to train the entire driver population about a rarely used signal?

In my parents home town I only know of two flashing light signals (at the fire and ambulance stations respectively) and I would very rarely drive past them. Indeed I would very rarely come across a flashing red light type signal at all.

It's not just the applicability to the emergency services that wigwags are different, it's the nature of the hazard. A steady red light by and large means that the only hazard is conflicting traffic (pedestrian, cycle, or motor vehicle) and is used to determine priority at any given time.
A wigwag generally denotes a hazard where the action that could be taken to avoid a collision by another party is much more limited and if it goes wrong it will go badly wrong. Mess around with level crossing or moving bridge signals and sooner or later you will find out what happens.

 

[Bikeman78]

An awful lot, and totally out of proportion to the resulting safety benefit. Plus in some places very difficult to achieve due to the local geography!

As an example, both Parsonage Road and Rusper Road in Horsham have properties close to the level crossings. Raising or lowering the road would prevent access to them. So they would have to be demolished. Or the roads could be severed. That would mean nowhere to cross the railway between the station and the bypass. Not very practical.

 

[edwin_m]

As far as I know, every country in the world denotes a controlled level crossing by a wig-wag, or something very similar including red flashing signals. Has every country got this wrong, and would we actually be increasing the risk for visitors from other countries if we decided to do something different?

 

[Lucan]

I disagree that cameras with a similar punishment to speed cameras are the solution. It only takes a read of a few comments on articles related to speed cameras on a local news social media account to see just how many people would see this as "just another way to steal money from hard working, tax paying motorists"

So what do you suggest instead of fining them? Flogging them? Giving prison sentences? Or just do nothing about it? Whatever the form of punishment, the culprits will always bitch about it. I don't care what they think.

 

[Lewisham2221]

So what do you suggest instead of fining them? Flogging them? Giving prison sentences? Or just do nothing about it? Whatever the form of punishment, the culprits will always bitch about it. I don't care what they think.

Trespass on the railway carries the threat of a court appearance and a £1000. So I would say that, plus 6 points (enough for a new driver to lose their licence) as a minimum. Throw in the threat of prison for dangerous driving as well. If people are literally willing to risk the life of themselves and others to save a few seconds/minutes, then £100 quid, a few points and/or a day sat in a classroom is a risk they're going to be more than willing to take.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I disagree that cameras with a similar punishment to speed cameras are the solution. It only takes a read of a few comments on articles related to speed cameras on a local news social media account to see just how many people would see this as "just another way to steal money from hard working, tax paying motorists"

I can only hope that, even if it is viewed as just another tax, people would endeavour to avoid paying by avoiding the transgression.

In an ideal world there would be no transgressions to punish. That is because we don't want people risking their (and others) lives in the first place to learn that railway level crossings are dangerous.

 

[zwk500]

I can only hope that, even if it is viewed as just another tax, people would endeavour to avoid paying by avoiding the transgression.

Evidence of Speeding and other motoring infractions indicates this is not the case.

In an ideal world there would be no transgressions to punish. That is because we don't want people risking their (and others) lives in the first place to learn that railway level crossings are dangerous.

There is already a significant amount of education work (not that it really should be needed) that goes on, but there's a proverb about horses and water for a reason. Everything from driving through closed barriers to stopping on the level crossing itself to open farm gates demonstrates that people just don't care what you tell them, they value their time more than their life.

A potentially unlimited fine starting at £1,000 and 9 points on your license endorsed for 5 years for passing a Wig-wag would be an appropriate punishment level to remind drivers it is never OK to run the lights.