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Those wreched nodding donkeys...

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northwichcat

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is no doubt that they have allowed many branch lines to survive to a point where they are no longer under threat, and it is doubtful if some would still be here had there been no Pacers.

Can anyone name a line in the North West that doesn't start or end at a large town or city i.e. proper rural branch lines, not commuter routes and where the line has a regular service? The only ones I can think of are Stockport-Stalybridge and Helsby-Ellesmere Port which don't exactly have many trains running on them. Other rural lines like Northwich-Sandbach were shut down before Pacers were built.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Pacers seem to me to serve some sort of purpose even now. Some of the routes on which they operate (or should operate) have incredibly low passenger volumes on them. Better a Pacer than the only other sensible option, closure. Now that the bus seats have been stripped out of all the 144s and most 142s, they're much better then they used to be anyway.

The bus seats remain in most 142s. The Merseyrail ones still have a type of bus style seats, even though not Leyland style seating and the rest of the former FNW 142s all have the original seats. Only the ex-ATN ones don't have bus seats.

I take it you've not been on the originally mentioned Mid-Cheshire line on a 142. Up to 180 people on some off-peak services run by 2 car 142s and the journey time is around 80-90 minutes and this is the least crowded service serving Manchester if the North West RUS is to be believed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So a pacer is only 3/4 the cost of a 150, I would call that a significant saving.

And in some cases a 142 has 3/4 of the number of seats of a 150, so not really a saving if used inappropraitely and passengers are left behind.
 
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CosherB

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And what about safety aspects? Some years ago a Nodding Donkey ran past a red signal on the WCML near Winsford and found itself switched onto the down fast just in front of an 87-hauled express. 'Wolf of Badenoch' ploughed into the back of the Donkey, completely demolishing most of its rear coach.

Luckly, the Donkey was running ECS so no passengers, and the 87 driver was unhurt (the 87 was little damaged, as well). If there had been any passengers in that rear coach, there'd have been carnage.
 

4SRKT

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And what about safety aspects? Some years ago a Nodding Donkey ran past a red signal on the WCML near Winsford and found itself switched onto the down fast just in front of an 87-hauled express. 'Wolf of Badenoch' ploughed into the back of the Donkey, completely demolishing most of its rear coach.

Luckly, the Donkey was running ECS so no passengers, and the 87 driver was unhurt (the 87 was little damaged, as well). If there had been any passengers in that rear coach, there'd have been carnage.

Although TBF there'd have been carnage no matter what the 87 ploughed into the back of. One less Pacer as well, so every cloud does appear to have a silver lining ;)

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The bus seats remain in most 142s. The Merseyrail ones still have a type of bus style seats, even though not Leyland style seating and the rest of the former FNW 142s all have the original seats. Only the ex-ATN ones don't have bus seats.

I take it you've not been on the originally mentioned Mid-Cheshire line on a 142. Up to 180 people on some off-peak services run by 2 car 142s and the journey time is around 80-90 minutes and this is the least crowded service serving Manchester if the North West RUS is to be believed.

Not recently, no, but I didn't say Pacers were suitable for just any route. Maybe this isn't one they aren't suitable on, at least not in the peaks. I doubt anyone's on this line for the full journey though, since it's quicker end to end via Warrington.

In West Yorkshire most routes are likewise unsuitable for Pacers off-peak, but that doesn't mean they don't have a role in some places, at least until they're life-expired. Mainly 144s and ATN 142s for us, so the seats are less horrendous :)

I'm no Pacer fan, believe me. I remember the horror which met the introduction of 141s in the York enthusiast community. However, they're here, and they're not life-expired. It makes sense to keep using them on suitable routes until their life is over. Whether it was a mistake to buy them in the first place isn't really relevant this many years on.
 
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ukrob

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And what about safety aspects? Some years ago a Nodding Donkey ran past a red signal on the WCML near Winsford and found itself switched onto the down fast just in front of an 87-hauled express. 'Wolf of Badenoch' ploughed into the back of the Donkey, completely demolishing most of its rear coach.

Luckly, the Donkey was running ECS so no passengers, and the 87 driver was unhurt (the 87 was little damaged, as well). If there had been any passengers in that rear coach, there'd have been carnage.

It would have been carnage whatever the 87 ran into.

http://stuarts-phots.fotopic.net/p39778845.html

That is the 142 that hit the buffers at Lime Street. The passenger accommodation is totally in tact apart from the area near the front door. I wouldn't say that is unsafe.
 
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northwichcat

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Not recently, no, but I didn't say Pacers were suitable for just any route. Maybe this isn't one they aren't suitable on, at least not in the peaks. I doubt anyone's on this line for the full journey though, since it's quicker end to end via Warrington.

Yes most people don't travel on that line for the entire length. However, if they arrive at Chester a bit late for the Manchester via Warrington service then they'll get to Manchester quicker on the Manchester via Stockport service than waiting for the next Manchester via Warrington service. Also for someone starting at Chester going planning to travel to a South TransPennine destination it's quickest for them to catch a train to Stockport, which is just 10-15 minutes from the end of the service.

The Mid-Cheshire line is also rare in some respects in that some off-peak services are overcrowded, while on some peak services everyone gets a seat.

There is also the issue of how Northern can allocate around 90 Pacers to only suitable routes, taking in to consideration that they get sponsored by some PTEs to use Sprinters on certain lines or use Sprinters on certain lines in the peaks.
 

Skarpur

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/383785.stm

Pacer vs said 87, structural integrity might be intact at low speeds, but consider the pacer in the photo there against the Pendolino that derailed at Grayrigg a couple of years ago. Granted I know they're totally different accidents and the Pendo was a right off but I think I'd rather be in the Pendo than the Pacer.
 

4SRKT

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Yes most people don't travel on that line for the entire length. However, if they arrive at Chester a bit late for the Manchester via Warrington service then they'll get to Manchester quicker on the Manchester via Stockport service than waiting for the next Manchester via Warrington service. Also for someone starting at Chester going planning to travel to a South TransPennine destination it's quickest for them to catch a train to Stockport, which is just 10-15 minutes from the end of the service.

The Mid-Cheshire line is also rare in some respects in that some off-peak services are overcrowded, while on some peak services everyone gets a seat.

There is also the issue of how Northern can allocate around 90 Pacers to only suitable routes, taking in to consideration that they get sponsored by some PTEs to use Sprinters on certain lines or use Sprinters on certain lines in the peaks.


I don't think there aren't issues with tha allocation of Pacers to routes. My point is that I don't think Pacers are rubbish per se. They are very suitable for certain routes. The question is rather one of lack of stock. If more stock of any description were available, then 4 car Pacers could be used in peaks.

Maybe Northern needs to reconsider where it allocates the 3-car 144s. Instead of having these apparently randomly working services in West Yorkshire mixed with 2 car sets, it could use them on busier routes like Chester-Altrincham-Manchester. I know that they are WYPTE sets, but maybe they could be replaced in WY by 2-car 142s and the cost to WYPTE reduced accordingly?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can anyone name a line in the North West that doesn't start or end at a large town or city i.e. proper rural branch lines, not commuter routes and where the line has a regular service? The only ones I can think of are Stockport-Stalybridge and Helsby-Ellesmere Port which don't exactly have many trains running on them. Other rural lines like Northwich-Sandbach were shut down before Pacers were built.

Carlisle-Whitehaven-Barrow, Colne-Blackpool South, Preston-Ormskirk, Lancaster-Morecambe. OK, some of these places are large, but they seem to me suitable lines for Pacer operations.
 

northwichcat

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I don't think there aren't issues with tha allocation of Pacers to routes. My point is that I don't think Pacers are rubbish per se. They are very suitable for certain routes. The question is rather one of lack of stock. If more stock of any description were available, then 4 car Pacers could be used in peaks.

They have a big disadvantage over 150/2s, 153s, 156s and 158s in a lack of corridor linkers means ideally two conductors are needed, otherwise a large number of people get away with fare evasion even if a conductor works mega hard.

Maybe Northern needs to reconsider where it allocates the 3-car 144s. Instead of having these apparently randomly working services in West Yorkshire mixed with 2 car sets, it could use them on busier routes like Chester-Altrincham-Manchester. I know that they are WYPTE sets, but maybe they could be replaced in WY by 2-car 142s and the cost to WYPTE reduced accordingly?

Hasn't the WY Metro sponsorship for those units expired now, like the Merseytravel 142s?

Carlisle-Whitehaven-Barrow, Colne-Blackpool South, Preston-Ormskirk, Lancaster-Morecambe. OK, some of these places are large, but they seem to me suitable lines for Pacer operations.

Colne-Blackpool South has previously caused complaints over Pacer operation on thie forum as a lot of people go to Blackpool in the summer.
 

yorksrob

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quote 4SRKT “Whether it was a mistake to buy them in the first place isn't really relevant this many years on.”

On the contrary, I think it’s highly pertinent and topical to examine whether opting for Pacer units was a mistake or not. We will soon be entering a period when quite a large amount of rolling stock will need to be procured both to replace and supplement existing elderly units whilst there is unlikely to be much money around to pay for it. It’s very likely that train builders and designers will be asked to cut costs and it’s worth having a careful think as to whether some shortcuts can be counter-productive. Already I can think of a couple of proposed tram-train projects which look suspiciously like they might become a Pacer type of solution.
In this debate, there are a large number of highly knowledgeable individuals who feel that the Pacers may have tipped the balance between survival and closure. Yet as Old Timer admits, this is more a case of “may have” rather than did. There are also large numbers of us who feel that the Pacer project ultimately left us stuck with a large fleet of substandard stock operating on often unsuitable lines for 30 or maybe 40 years. Perhaps someone should do a proper audit of the pro’s and con’s of these units and investigate in detail whether any savings in operating costs did actually tip the balance on some of these marginal routes.

quote 4SRKT “However, they're here, and they're not life-expired. It makes sense to keep using them on suitable routes until their life is over.”

It’s interesting that other than the Lymington CIG’s and the 1938 Tube stock, I can’t think of any passenger trains on the network which are much older than the Pacers. The HST’s are probably the oldest and yet they are not only Mk 3 but they also have new interiors and engines. The other units of around the same time are in my opinion better designed and built therefore I stand by my earlier comment that when the time comes, the Pacers should be the first to go, although generally as someone brought up on the Southern, I believe in getting the maximum life out of rolling stock.

quote jcollins“Can anyone name a line in the North West that doesn't start or end at a large town
or city i.e. proper rural branch lines, not commuter routes and where the line has a regular service?”

A very good point, which I’m sure is why so many end up on unsuitable routes.
 
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4SRKT

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It’s interesting that other than the Lymington CIG’s and the 1938 Tube stock, I can’t think of any passenger trains on the network which are much older than the Pacers. The HST’s are probably the oldest and yet they are not only Mk 3 but they also have new interiors and engines.

TBF the Pacers also have new engines and many of them new interiors as well. They may be among the oldest trains still working, but that doesn't make them life-expired yet. They were among the first DMUs built after a very long lag, so it's inevitable that they are the oldest, without it being obvious that they're life-expired: the sets they replaced were older than Pacers are now.

My view is simply make the best of a not wholly satisfactory situation. This is a not insubstantial fleet of trains, that could have a lot of use on proper secondary routes. Maybe Northern isn't the right TOC for all of them, but it somehow doesn't seem right to scrap trains with life in them yet.
 

4SRKT

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Actually it strikes me that a Pacer at 60 mph on very poor jointed track is probably as good an example of what it was like on an 83/84 at 100 mph on perfect cwr !

LOL! Well do I remember 141s (even worse than true Pacers) at speed on the jointed track between York and Harrogate. A truly unforgettable experience!
 

yorksrob

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"it somehow doesn't seem right to scrap trains with life in them yet. "

Well, I suppose I would have said something very similar about the slammers :)
 
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Aictos

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But the issue remains that a lot more lines would have closed had it not been for the introduction on the Pacers, I know I hate them but let's face it, they were perfect at the time for lines which didn't quite made enough money for Sprinters.
Of course, nowadays I would be happy to see the lot of them sold off to People's Republic of China, Iran or even to the US to use as targets on their bombong ranges!

Give me a 153 anyday instead of Pacers.
 

yorksrob

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But the issue remains that a lot more lines would have closed had it not been for the introduction on the Pacers, I know I hate them but let's face it, they were perfect at the time for lines which didn't quite made enough money for Sprinters.
Of course, nowadays I would be happy to see the lot of them sold off to People's Republic of China, Iran or even to the US to use as targets on their bombong ranges!

Give me a 153 anyday instead of Pacers.

As I keep saying, wheres the evidence?
 

4SRKT

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As I keep saying, wheres the evidence?

Where's the evidence not? All we can be sure is that this was a time when lots of lines were seriously threatened with closure, including (incredibly through today's eyes) the whole Leeds/Bradford-Ilkley/Keighley/Skipton section, which is now electrified and has at least a 15 minute interval service on nearly every section, and without which North Bradford traffic would grind to a halt twice a day. Who's to say that cheaper trains didn't save these and other lines? Whatever happened, their lower first and operating costs must at least have helped get through the bad times, even if they weren't completely decisive.

It does seem incredible now that the Airedale and Wharfedale services now have half hourly 4-car 23m EMUs on each of Leeds-Ilkley, Leeds-Skipton, Leeds-Bradford, Bradford-Ilkley and Bradford-Skipton. I remember the introduction of the 1987 timetable, at the absolute nadir, when there was an hourly 2-car DMU Leeds-Skipton and Leeds-Ilkley, and an hourly Bradford-Keighley and Bradford-Guiseley, where it connected with the Leeds-Ilkley. How things have changed!

Why am I still a CSA? I've been posting like fury recently. What's the next promotion?
 

Old Timer

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As I keep saying, wheres the evidence?
I very much doubt that you will be able to prove specifically one way or the other which line(s) was kept open because of the use of Pacers.

As someone who was around at that time, I can tell you that finances were being pushed so hard that we had to reduce costs by demanning even though we knew this was costing us money in the longer term.

The first posts to go were barrier posts followed by leaving RDR / GPR posts unfilled. This had the effect of then needing to depend upon the goodwill of staff to work the overtime to cover for unfilled shifts.

What needs to be understood is that we were "cost centres" not "profit centres" and therefore each Region could share the savings or cost overruns around the Divisions and Areas.

As it was Politically generally unacceptable for passenger lines to be closed, savings were made in other areas, such as track renewals, and track improvements. In this manner the required cuts were achieved without the need for wholesale closures. Another example was reducing train formations to reflect the declining use of some services, as well as changes to manning practices and duties.

If we look at the Joint Line, Spalding to March was closed to save money for example, the Lincoln Avoiding line was closed to save money, and passenger servicers were reduced. Intermediate signalboxes were also demanned and switched out of circuit, and the Skegness line went to a special 10 hour day roster.

I think if we had really looked hard, it would not have been possible to retain services such as March/Peterborough - Spalding - Sleaford - Lincoln - Doncaster, and I think had it not been available as a diversionary route for both engineering works and emergencies, then it would have been closed throughout.

The use of Pacers, with their better acceleration that the classic DMUs and cheaper operating / maintenance costs, was certainly a very important factor in allowing system wide savings which could be used to bolster services elsewhere.

Remember that by the 1980s the classic DMUs were desperately in need of refurbishment and many were on their last legs. Casualty rates were high and climbing.

I doubt few people on here will know that in the case of the Bedford - St Pancras DMU service, watering cans filled with water were kept at many stations to fill up the radiators in order to keep the service running.

Indeed in the summer, the DMUs could not run the whole length without a water stop somewhere.

Similar problems existed elsewhere and in rural areas it was only the goodwill of train crew who kept services running in some areas by working units which were not really fit to be running about.

There was no danger as such, but it would become known that the Driver on a specific service for example would appreciate clear signals as the brakes were not so good so we all mucked in and made sure he had a good run. In other cases Drivers would struggle around with say an engine or two out.

Looking back on it there is no comparison to the way we run things today !. DMUs with no lights because the batteries had packed up, Drivers handlamps on the front bracket, Drivers lamps in the cab because the instrument lighting had failed. The unwritten understanding that a Driver carried on without a working speedo and we left him to use his judgement on speed.

This really was how things were in those days, and why I say that Pacers helped out enormously in helping us struggle on until the World came out of Recession and things started to improve.

Now we are about to re-enter those hard times again but in today's environment we do not have the latitude to work as we then did, and I think in many ways we do not have the same camaraderie that we did then.

So I would ask the people who disparage the Pacers to have another think about how thongs were then, and although we all know that tyhe Pacers were far from ideal, they did give us the breathing space we so desperately needed. Remember also that the Sprinters were originally a stop gap measure.
 

northwichcat

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Other issue with Pacers:

1. Less stable on viaducts than Sprinters. The Leftwich viaduct in Cheshire could have it's line speed raised from 20mph to 50mph if Pacers were banned from it.
2. They have to slow right down on sharp bends otherwise the resulting noise is unbareable.
3. They seem to be more affected by traction problems than Sprinters.
 

starrymarkb

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/383785.stm

Pacer vs said 87, structural integrity might be intact at low speeds, but consider the pacer in the photo there against the Pendolino that derailed at Grayrigg a couple of years ago. Granted I know they're totally different accidents and the Pendo was a right off but I think I'd rather be in the Pendo than the Pacer.

The Pacer behaved as designed. The passenger accommodation is intact. Would a first gen unit or a sprinter have survived much better?

Something else to remember is that the Pendo bodyshell is one of the strongest for it's weight on the network. No BR stock comes close....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
TBF the Pacers also have new engines and many of them new interiors as well. They may be among the oldest trains still working, but that doesn't make them life-expired yet. They were among the first DMUs built after a very long lag, so it's inevitable that they are the oldest, without it being obvious that they're life-expired: the sets they replaced were older than Pacers are now.

My view is simply make the best of a not wholly satisfactory situation. This is a not insubstantial fleet of trains, that could have a lot of use on proper secondary routes. Maybe Northern isn't the right TOC for all of them, but it somehow doesn't seem right to scrap trains with life in them yet.

313s are the oldest on the network, they are approaching their 40th birthday
 

4SRKT

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On NIR the remaining 80 Class DEMU dates from 1977. The other DEMUs date from 1986, but that's only the bodyshells (class 455 based) and the power car bogies (B6). They have second hand BR Mk I underframes, second hand re-gauged B4 bogies on the trailers, and engines, generators and traction motors salvaged from the earlier 70 class thumpers originally built by the UTA in 1966! At 43 years, these must be by far the oldest engines in everyday passenger service in these islands outside a class 08. Still going strong as well on a fairly steeply graded line with very frequent stops and starts.
 

Old Timer

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Other issue with Pacers:1. Less stable on viaducts than Sprinters. The Leftwich viaduct in Cheshire could have it's line speed raised from 20mph to 50mph if Pacers were banned from it.
Can you clarify this. The line speed can be adjusted such that a higher speed applies to different trains. And how do you define "less stable" ?


Other issue with Pacers:2. They have to slow right down on sharp bends otherwise the resulting noise is unbareable.
.
That is related to the track geometry and may not be wholly vehicle related.


Other issue with Pacers:3. They seem to be more affected by traction problems than Sprinters.
Again this could well be to do with poor quality track causing riding problesm which will obviously impact upon the reliability of the traction mechanism.
 

northwichcat

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Can you clarify this. The line speed can be adjusted such that a higher speed applies to different trains. And how do you define "less stable" ?

There wouldn't be any point unless Northern only used Sprinters on the line, otherwise any service that a Pacer ran or filled in for a Sprinter for would take double the timetabled amount of time between Northwich and Greenbank.

From a North West RUS response:

The longest speed restriction on the line is over Leftwich Viaduct west of Northwich where the speed restriction is 20mph for about ¼ mile. This is due to subsidence now stabilised arising from the brine workings in the Northwich area. In 2002 the then TOC, First North Western, commissioned a study from Railtrack into whether this line speed could be increased. The report from Railtrack stated that due to the transverse timbers used on the two steel bridges connecting the different parts of the viaduct the line speed could not be raised for the 2-axle class 142 units used but could be raised to 50mph for all other passenger trains. At that stage around half the units used on the line were class 142s, the others being Sprinter units, class 175 units and class 101 units. Since Northern Rail have taken over as TOC most of the units used are now of the class 142 variety. If the TOC agreed to the use of only Sprinter units on the line, we understand these could travel over Leftwich Viaduct at 50mph reducing end-to-end timings by up to 2 minutes.
 

4SRKT

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There wouldn't be any point unless Northern only used Sprinters on the line, otherwise any service that a Pacer ran or filled in for a Sprinter for would take double the timetabled amount of time between Northwich and Greenbank.

From a North West RUS response:

The longest speed restriction on the line is over Leftwich Viaduct west of Northwich where the speed restriction is 20mph for about ¼ mile. This is due to subsidence now stabilised arising from the brine workings in the Northwich area. In 2002 the then TOC, First North Western, commissioned a study from Railtrack into whether this line speed could be increased. The report from Railtrack stated that due to the transverse timbers used on the two steel bridges connecting the different parts of the viaduct the line speed could not be raised for the 2-axle class 142 units used but could be raised to 50mph for all other passenger trains. At that stage around half the units used on the line were class 142s, the others being Sprinter units, class 175 units and class 101 units. Since Northern Rail have taken over as TOC most of the units used are now of the class 142 variety. If the TOC agreed to the use of only Sprinter units on the line, we understand these could travel over Leftwich Viaduct at 50mph reducing end-to-end timings by up to 2 minutes.

So at 20 mph instead of 50 mph for quarter of a mile, the Pacer takes 30 seconds longer than a Sprinter. Hardly a reason to withdraw a load of trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've become a Train Dispatcher! Yeeee-Haaaa!
 
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northwichcat

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So at 20 mph instead of 50 mph for quarter of a mile, the Pacer takes 30 seconds longer than a Sprinter. Hardly a reason to withdraw a load of trains.

No it'd be about 3 minutes journey time instead of 5 minutes between Northwich and Greenbank. Don't forget the Sprinter can speed up to 50mph after leaving one station and stay at that speed until it's ready to slow down for the next station. A Pacer can accelerate to 50 (if it can reach it before it has to slow down), then has to slow down to 20, then accelerate to 50 (again if it can reach it before it has to slow down again.)
 

Old Timer

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No it'd be about 3 minutes journey time instead of 5 minutes between Northwich and Greenbank. Don't forget the Sprinter can speed up to 50mph after leaving one station and stay at that speed until it's ready to slow down for the next station. A Pacer can accelerate to 50 (if it can reach it before it has to slow down), then has to slow down to 20, then accelerate to 50 (again if it can reach it before it has to slow down again.)
So as I predicted, the issue is one of poor Infrastructure rather than the Pacer unit.

Poor Infrastructure is the one reason why the Pacers ride badly, and I suspect is also a major factor in traction drive failures. A Pacer will respond to poor track conditions more readily than a "normal" passenger vehicle because it is both long rigidly wheelbased, and because in effect it is a rail wagon with modified suspension rather than a purpose designed passenger carrying vehicle.
 
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