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Thornbury is currently cut off from the rail network. Part of the former line still exists as the Tytherington freight line. That currently ends at Tytherington Quarry.
Rather than cluttering up other threads, I've started this one so discussion about this subject can be all in one place.
I have no idea how to reply to a message that’s in a different thread (Charfield station) in this one, so @zwk500, sorry - I misread the post about proposed stopping patterns of Yate trains.
Where I would disagree is the penalty of doubling back via Temple Meads. While 6 minutes each way is probably tolerable as part of a journey to Cardiff, it’s quite a lot extra on a journey from (say) Montpelier to Filton AW or Parkway - especially if frequencies reach 4tph so you’re more likely than not to be at least one train later than you otherwise might have been. If (and it’s a big if) the Yate turn back is a sign of 4tph to come with an aim for the terminators eventually to run to Thornbury, then they should be all-station stoppers.
I have no idea how to reply to a message that’s in a different thread (Charfield station) in this one, so @zwk500, sorry - I misread the post about proposed stopping patterns of Yate trains.
Where I would disagree is the penalty of doubling back via Temple Meads. While 6 minutes each way is probably tolerable as part of a journey to Cardiff, it’s quite a lot extra on a journey from (say) Montpelier to Filton AW or Parkway - especially if frequencies reach 4tph so you’re more likely than not to be at least one train later than you otherwise might have been. If (and it’s a big if) the Yate turn back is a sign of 4tph to come with an aim for the terminators eventually to run to Thornbury, then they should be all-station stoppers.
If you're travelling from Montpelier to Filton AW or Parkway you'd likely just take the bus up Gloucester Road. Or meet the train you're trying to interchange onto at Temple Meads. I feel stopping Yate trains between Filton and Temple Meads is very much a 'nice to have' not 'must'. Travel from suburban Bristol to commuter Winterbourne/Yate is fairly minimal.
It's a difficult one because adding the Main Line platforms back at Stapleton Road and stopping on the mains risks delaying fast trains from further afield, and crossing the Yate trains at Horfield junction to allow them to run all-stations introduces more conflicting moves which worsens the risk to the timetable, especially with the Cardiff trains that don't stop on the bank.
What Bristol really needs to meet the sorts of journeys you're talking about is really a separate Transit system, not trying to strongarm the mainline railway into doing a job it's not really set up to do. But that's a different thread.
Unfortunately Yate station is in the wrong place for the start of the branch to be used as a turnback, which would also make it unsuitable for any future Thornbury trains to call.
They could, or demolish what looks like a small industrial estate and relocate the platform, but it would make the turnback a lot more expensive than if they could just use what is there now.
There is nothing to use ‘there now’ (at Yate). Presumably Network Rail have crunched the numbers for the turn back facility and believe this is cheaper and/or easier, but presumably on the entirely on the basis that there are no Thornbury services. That doesn’t mean that you couldn’t introduce Thornbury services in future with the existing Yate station layout. There is plenty of room to relocate the junction to facilitate this (and if this was to happen would mean the money spent on the proposed turnback at bit of a waste/was now redundant).
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Thornbury is currently cut off from the rail network. Part of the former line still exists as the Tytherington freight line. That currently ends at Tytherington Quarry.
Rather than cluttering up other threads, I've started this one so discussion about this subject can be all in one place.
For those that don’t know the area Thornbury is now a commuter town for Bristol and since the railway has closed it has expanded virtually all the way to Tytherington Quarry. The houses in the nearest new estates are approximately 400m from the current buffer stops.
There is nothing to use ‘there now’ (at Yate). Presumably Network Rail have crunched the numbers for the turn back facility and believe this is cheaper and/or easier, but presumably on the entirely on the basis that there are no Thornbury services.
The current layout (for those that don't know) is fairly restrictive:
(Screenshot from signal maps of Yate area)
Passenger trains from Bristol can only use platform 1, an ECS or freight could be signalled into platform 2 towards a Limit of Shunt signal. Trains towards Bristol must start from Platform 2, which can only be reached by trains from Cam & Dursley direction.
There is a facing crossover immediately south of the station, so Westerleigh Oil trains can run directly in from the north or be shunted out for a right-road departure, but Tytherington trains can only arrive without reversal from the south and there is no protecting signal at the south end of platform 1 so trains departing the Tytherington line are signalled straight through to the northbound line wrong-road.
To run a service originating/terminating at Yate today (unless there are special instructions) would require signalling the train into platform 1 towards Gloucester, cancelling the route and letting any locking time out while the train is emptied, then shunting forward onto the Tytherington line, changing ends, shunting south of Yate (either onto the freight line or the normal northbound line) and then changing ends again to shunt into P2, before changing ends again ready for departure to Bristol.
The simplest change to allow a service to terminate at Yate would be to change the LOS at the north end of P2 to a Main Aspect signal, but that the blocks p2 for the time the train is turning round. Adding in a siding will cost a lot less than putting in the additional crossovers and signalling that would be needed to allow a train to start back from P1.
(sorry this bit should probably be in the main thread)
That doesn’t mean that you couldn’t introduce Thornbury services in future with the existing Yate station layout. There is plenty of room to relocate the junction to facilitate this (and if this was to happen would mean the money spent on the proposed turnback at bit of a waste/was now redundant).
The current layout (for those that don't know) is fairly restrictive: View attachment 183579
(Screenshot from signal maps of Yate area)
Passenger trains from Bristol can only use platform 1, an ECS or freight could be signalled into platform 2 towards a Limit of Shunt signal. Trains towards Bristol must start from Platform 2, which can only be reached by trains from Cam & Dursley direction.
There is a facing crossover immediately south of the station, so Westerleigh Oil trains can run directly in from the north or be shunted out for a right-road departure, but Tytherington trains can only arrive without reversal from the south and there is no protecting signal at the south end of platform 1 so trains departing the Tytherington line are signalled straight through to the northbound line wrong-road.
To run a service originating/terminating at Yate today (unless there are special instructions) would require signalling the train into platform 1 towards Gloucester, cancelling the route and letting any locking time out while the train is emptied, then shunting forward onto the Tytherington line, changing ends, shunting south of Yate (either onto the freight line or the normal northbound line) and then changing ends again to shunt into P2, before changing ends again ready for departure to Bristol.
The simplest change to allow a service to terminate at Yate would be to change the LOS at the north end of P2 to a Main Aspect signal, but that the blocks p2 for the time the train is turning round. Adding in a siding will cost a lot less than putting in the additional crossovers and signalling that would be needed to allow a train to start back from P1.
(sorry this bit should probably be in the main thread)
The prospect of Thornbury coming back isn't an immediate one. The value of the siding will likely be recovered before any such service would start.
Only the southbound platform is in the wrong place and they could shift the current Thornbury junction further north (back to its original location) if they really wanted or needed to:
As you say the current layout is restrictive, but wouldn’t require the station to be moved as Edwin suggested.
But fundamentally I’m not sure why Yate itself needs more than 2tph (capacity issues would be better sorted with an even stoping pattern on the route to spread the loadings better across all trains and/or longer trains, not more trains) and as others have pointed out a Yate-Bristol all stations stopper introduces a host of other issues.
I'm not convinced the junction geometry could be restored as you say, but do agree that the station would not need relocating to reopen to Thornbury.
A diamond crossing on the mainline would be highly detrimental to the faster services that use the line, so the connection to the branch will likely remain as a crossover and turnout. This means putting it north of the existing southbound platform would be extremely tight. However if you leave the north end as is, there appears to be space on the straight track south of the station for a trailing crossover to be installed to allow direct departures from Tytherington branch or P1 to the normal southbound line. This crossover would likely be in the overlap of the signal for platform 2, and would require additional signalling on the northbound side, but doesn't look to require the relocation of the platforms at all. The short section of wrong-road running through P1 would not be too big of an issue.
If the platforms wanted extending, that would be a different matter.
Also to pick up on the turnback being redundant - it does offer additional length to shunt trains out of Westerleigh than the existing LOS. I don't know if that length is of any use though.
Any service to Thornbury is only going to need to be 3 car (or 4 car if that was the minimum length of a future GWR suburban fleet). Presumably the platforms could still be extended to accommodate potential 6 or 8 car doubled up trains on the main line. As it is 5 car 800s have been used regularly on the mainline with selective door opening.
With regards to the layout at Yate, this was only designed for freight movements. Indeed, apart from the facing main to main crossover, all other points were ground frame operated when Bristol Panel (PSB) took control of this area in the early 1970s.
In the early 1990s, Yate South G.F. (access to the C2 line to Westerleigh including oil terminal and at the time, Avon council waste transfer station) and Yate Middle G.F. (access to the Tytherington line) were recovered and the functions converted to power operation from Bristol Panel. Yate North G.F. remained.
If you did want to terminate a passenger train at Yate using the current facilities, you would use the existing signalling routes to send it on to the Tytherington line. But as this is a "calling on" position aspect at the main line protecting signal, a suitable special instruction would be needed. The train would stop at the up/north bound platform. The traincrew would have to ensure that all passengers had got off. Then it would proceed on to the branch. The driver then changes ends and waits for the position light signal to take it back on to the up main line. Then the train calls again at the bound platform. Again there needs to be a suitable special instruction, as the signalled route is not intended for in service passenger trains. Once station duties are complete, the train continues to Westerleigh Junction going down the up line. After passing Yate South junction, There is a main aspect signal for down direction moves, so the train once again will be subject to normal signalling. But see below about track capacity.
The previous station at Yate had both platforms south of the road bridge. The position of the current down (south bound) platform is due to the land where the old station was being privately owned and for whatever reason, the decision taken back in the late 1980s was to rebuild the south bound platform in its present location.
As I understand it, there are no current plans to reopen the line through to Thornbury. This option has already been investigated and the combination of all the problems and the amount of money needed means it scores very poorly.
Even if it did reopen, assuming no changes to the junction points, trains could use the up (north bound) platform for both directions. However, the issue may then be a problem with track capacity. As any train coming off the branch has to travel down the up line all the way to Westerleigh Junction. So there would have to be a gap in the service to allow this.
For the current timetabled freight service (two down trains a day) this is not too much of a problem. But it would be for a passenger service. So I would expect an additional training crossover would be needed. And maybe realigning the junction to the branch.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Here's an old signalling plan from when the area was controlled by Bristol Panel. I've used this plan as it shows the former Yate North G.F., and this is near where the turn back siding will be built.
Although it is now controlled by TVSC, all the signals shown and all the power operated points still exist. Note that the track circuits have been replaced with axle counters.
Note that the useable track at Tytherington Quarry may now be different to that shown.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
The current layout (for those that don't know) is fairly restrictive: View attachment 183579
(Screenshot from signal maps of Yate area)
Passenger trains from Bristol can only use platform 1, an ECS or freight could be signalled into platform 2 towards a Limit of Shunt signal. Trains towards Bristol must start from Platform 2, which can only be reached by trains from Cam & Dursley direction.
There is a facing crossover immediately south of the station, so Westerleigh Oil trains can run directly in from the north or be shunted out for a right-road departure, but Tytherington trains can only arrive without reversal from the south and there is no protecting signal at the south end of platform 1 so trains departing the Tytherington line are signalled straight through to the northbound line wrong-road.
To run a service originating/terminating at Yate today (unless there are special instructions) would require signalling the train into platform 1 towards Gloucester, cancelling the route and letting any locking time out while the train is emptied, then shunting forward onto the Tytherington line, changing ends, shunting south of Yate (either onto the freight line or the normal northbound line) and then changing ends again to shunt into P2, before changing ends again ready for departure to Bristol.
The simplest change to allow a service to terminate at Yate would be to change the LOS at the north end of P2 to a Main Aspect signal, but that the blocks p2 for the time the train is turning round. Adding in a siding will cost a lot less than putting in the additional crossovers and signalling that would be needed to allow a train to start back from P1.
(sorry this bit should probably be in the main thread)
The prospect of Thornbury coming back isn't an immediate one. The value of the siding will likely be recovered before any such service would start.
Bits in bold in the quote above - from the main aspect signal at Yate South on the up line, there was no route available to the LOS on the down line when this area was controlled by Bristol Panel. When TVSC took control, this situation remained the same. The only signalled route to the LOS is from the GPL controlling the exit from the C2 line from Westerleigh Oil terminal (shown as Westerleigh yard on the diagram in the quote).
If a train wants to shunt out from the C2 line from Westerleigh Oil terminal to run towards Bristol, it has to shunt on to the Tytherington line behind the GPL controlling the exit from this line.
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