This Ticket...

[RJ]

What is its potential as use as a cheap Travelcard including peak hours?

 

[rail-britain]

None, as it has expired

 

[John @ home]

What is its potential as use as a cheap Travelcard including peak hours?

It is valid for one single journey only from a London terminal to a tube or DLR station via tube or DLR or a limited number of National Rail routes where joint ticketing with TfL applies. It is not valid by bus or tram. Automatic ticket barriers will, in general, recognise this validity and not allow subsequent journeys.

John

 

[glynn80]

The Manual states:

Train Tube Zonal Fares

For a point-to-point journey:

· between two National Rail stations where the journey includes the cost of travel on London Underground and/or DLR services, e.g. ‘cross-London’ transfer, or for

· through tickets between a National Rail station and any ‘U’ zone destination or to HEATHROW UNDERGD (note CDR tickets are not available to these destinations: issue Off-Peak Day Travelcard (link)). ‘Train Tube’ tickets for these journeys are issued to show all the Fare Zones travelled in or through from the station of origin. For example, a ticket for a journey between Selhurst (Zone 4) to Holborn (Zone 1) is issued SELHURST to ZONES U1234 LONDN and is valid for transfer to LU services at any interchange station on the line of route, i.e. at Balham, London Victoria, or, via Clapham Junction, at Vauxhall or London Waterloo. Tickets can be reverse issued, i.e. from ZONES U1234.

· ‘Train Tube’ tickets should also be issued for journeys from a designated London Terminals station where either –

a) the destination is an Underground or DLR station, but the first leg of the journey is on an NR service. For example, London Victoria via Balham to Morden (LU) should be issued LONDON TERMINALS to ZONES U1234.

or

b) where the destination is a NR station, but the first leg of the journey is on an LU/ or DLR service. For example, London Euston to Clapham Junction via LU to either Waterloo or Vauxhall. In this example the ticket should be issued ZONES U12 to CLAPHAM JUNCTION.

· Most Southern 'Out-boundary' stations also issue through tickets on the same basis. For example, tickets with availability in Zone 1 will be issued to U1256. Passengers interchanging at Balham and not wishing to travel via Zone 1 should be issued with a ticket to U2356, or U3456 as appropriate.

So that ticket would only allow you ONE journey from a London Terminal to any station whether it be National Rail (and you wish to travel via the London Underground as part of your journey), DLR, or LU in the Zones 1-6

 

[dan_atki]

As mentioned above it is effectively the National Rail version of a zone 1-6 single issued by London Underground.

As a slight correction to the last paragraph of the previous post, tickets with a destination of 'U' are not valid to any station within the travelcard zones but only those which are served by LU/DLR (and in cases where LU/DLR services use the same station as NR services). Part of the agreement for the NR zonal fares structure in London was tickets were still to be issued from a station and to a station rather than a generic zonal ticket.

Single journeys are denoted by a destination of 'U' followed by the zones the single/return ticket is valid for. E.g. U1, U23, U2356, U2345, U1256.

In the case of out boundary Metropolitan Line stations, if the same arrangement still exists as under zones A, B, C, and D then tickets were issued with a destination of the station being traveled to, this was to take into account the local fares structure in the area. E.g. Watford Met Und, Moor Park Und. As far as I'm aware it was possible to use these stations exactly like other NR stations on ticket issuing systems (so tickets to these destinations could be issued from outside London) and fares appeared for such journeys in fares manuals.

Travelcards are denoted by a destination of 'R' followed by the zones the travelcard is valid in. E.g. R12, R1234, R1256 (all zones travelcard), R2356.

Here, I'm not so sure what arrangements apply for zones 7 to 10 (or ABCD). I'd assume based on the fact that actual destinations were used for singles, these travelcards could not be issued from NR ticket offices.

 

[RJ]

Ok cheers!

 

[glynn80]

As mentioned above it is effectively the National Rail version of a zone 1-6 single issued by London Underground.

As a slight correction to the last paragraph of the previous post, tickets with a destination of 'U' are not valid to any station within the travelcard zones but only those which are served by LU/DLR (and in cases where LU/DLR services use the same station as NR services). Part of the agreement for the NR zonal fares structure in London was tickets were still to be issued from a station and to a station rather than a generic zonal ticket.

The quote from the fares manual states the following

Train Tube Zonal Fares

For a point-to-point journey:

· between two National Rail stations where the journey includes the cost of travel on London Underground and/or DLR services, e.g. ‘cross-London’ transfer, or for

I said in my previous post that it was valid not between "any" two National Rail stations but "any" two which you wished to take LU travel as part of your journey to them.

So it is not just for fares to NR stations served by LU as well, e.g. a ticket from London Liverpool Street to Selhurst would be just as quick for you to take the Central line to Bank and then the Northern line to Balham and then NR to Selhurst, If you were to just purchase a London Terminals to Selhurst, it would not be valid from LST as it would not include LU travel (hence this ticket being available) and would have to be used from LDB or VIC.

 

[RJ]

The quote from the fares manual states the following

Train Tube Zonal Fares

For a point-to-point journey:

· between two National Rail stations where the journey includes the cost of travel on London Underground and/or DLR services, e.g. ‘cross-London’ transfer, or for

I said in my previous post that it was valid not between "any" two National Rail stations but "any" two which you wished to take LU travel as part of your journey to them.

So it is not just for fares to NR stations served by LU as well, e.g. a ticket from London Liverpool Street to Selhurst would be just as quick for you to take the Central line to Bank and then the Northern line to Balham and then NR to Selhurst, If you were to just purchase a London Terminals to Selhurst, it would not be valid from LST as it would not include LU travel (hence this ticket being available) and would have to be used from LDB or VIC.

Or WAT/CHX and surely EUS via WLJ/CLJ.

 

[glynn80]

Or WAT/CHX and surely EUS via WLJ/CLJ.

Waterloo and CHX certainly, I'd have to check the Routeing guide for EUS, not sure it would be a mapped route.

 

[dan_atki]

So it is not just for fares to NR stations served by LU as well, e.g. a ticket from London Liverpool Street to Selhurst would be just as quick for you to take the Central line to Bank and then the Northern line to Balham and then NR to Selhurst, If you were to just purchase a London Terminals to Selhurst, it would not be valid from LST as it would not include LU travel (hence this ticket being available) and would have to be used from LDB or VIC.

I assure you that using a ticket marked 'From London Terminals, To U1234 London' is not valid to Selhurst. For confirmation of this check thetrainline or any other online ticketing website and ask it for the price of a fare from 'Victoria to Selhurst'. Compare this to the price of a 'Liverpool Street to Selhurst' and also a zone 1-4 LU single and indeed there are discrepancies.

Prices in the 'U' tickets are based on the LU zonal pricing and not on the NR zonal pricing and hence this is why the tickets are not valid as such and this discrepancy exists.

If you approach the ticket office at LST and ask them for a single to Selhurst they'd give you a 'From U1234, To Selhurst' as shown by the wording you've quoted in the fares manuals. (This is the exact reverse of the ticket you'd buy from Selhurst to Liverpool Street). From Victoria this would be a 'From London Terminals, To Selhurst' ticket.

Journeys with an intermediate LU journey have fares routed '+Any Permitted' which allow travel on LU/DLR for a reasonable route appropriate for the through journey being made. E.g. Radlett to Clapham Junction route +Any Permitted will allow LU travel between West Hampstead(/Kentish Town)/St Pancras/Farringdon/Blackfriars/Elephant & Castle and Victoria/Waterloo/Vauxhall. Using such a ticket to say Paddington or Liverpool Street is not appropriate and is therefore not valid.

Tickets with an origin or destination of 'U' are not valid for such journeys where there is a NR leg at the start and end of the journey as '+Any Permitted' tickets cover intermediate LU usage.

Journeys with a first leg on LU and ending at (non LU) NR stations are issued as 'From Ux to [station]'. If the station is within the zones then the numbers after U will include all zones travel must be undertaken through. If the journey is out of the zones it will go upto 6 (again including all zones needed to be travelled through).

Journeys starting at NR stations (inc LU stations with a NR ticket office) with a final leg on LU (and finishing at a non-NR station nor one with coexisting routes between LU and NR as described in the fares manual) are issued as 'From [station] to Ux' with the numbers after U indicating all zones passed through to get to the destination station.

 

[glynn80]

I assure you that using a ticket marked 'From London Terminals, To U1234 London' is not valid to Selhurst. For confirmation of this check thetrainline or any other online ticketing website and ask it for the price of a fare from Victoria to Selhurst. Compare this to the price of a 'Liverpool Street to Selhurst' and indeed there is a discrepancy.

Prices in the 'U' tickets are based on the LU zonal pricing and not on the NR zonal pricing and hence this is why the tickets are not valid as such and this discrepancy exists.

If you approach the ticket office at LST and ask them for a single to Selhurst they'd give you a 'From U1234, To Selhurst' as shown by the wording you've quoted in the fares manuals. (This is the exact reverse of the ticket you'd buy from Selhurst to Liverpool Street). From Victoria this would be a 'From London Terminals, To Selhurst' ticket.

Journeys with an intermediate LU journey have fares routed '+Any Permitted' which allow travel on LU/DLR for a reasonable route appropriate for the through journey being made. E.g. Radlett to Clapham Junction route +Any Permitted will allow LU travel between West Hampstead(/Kentish Town)/St Pancras/Farringdon/Blackfriars/Elephant & Castle and Victoria/Waterloo/Vauxhall. Using such a ticket to say Paddington or Liverpool Street is not appropriate and is therefore not valid.

Tickets with an origin or destination of 'U' are not valid for such journeys where there is a NR leg at the start and end of the journey as '+Any Permitted' tickets cover intermediate LU usage.

Journeys with a first leg on LU and ending at (non LU) NR stations are issued as 'From Ux to [station]'. If the station is within the zones then the numbers after U will include all zones travel must be undertaken through. If the journey is out of the zones it will go upto 6 (again including all zones needed to be travelled through).

Journeys starting at NR stations with a final leg on LU (and finishing at a non-NR station nor one with coexisting routes between LU and NR as described in the fares manual) are issued as 'From [station] to Ux' with the numbers after U indicating all zones passed through to get to the destination station.

I am quoting DIRECTLY from the NFM and it does actually say
between two National Rail stations where the journey includes the cost of travel on London Underground and/or DLR services, e.g. ‘cross-London’ transfer

You are correct that usually when you have an intermediate LU journey normally have the +Any Permitted route, but not from a London Terminal. I was indeed incorrect and did not read on, that you cannot go to "Any" NR station with indermediate LU journey the LU journey must be at the beggining, reading the NFM carefully it states the following

· ‘Train Tube’ tickets should also be issued for journeys from a designated London Terminals station where either –

a) the destination is an Underground or DLR station, but the first leg of the journey is on an NR service. For example, London Victoria via Balham to Morden (LU) should be issued LONDON TERMINALS to ZONES U1234.

or

b) where the destination is a NR station, but the first leg of the journey is on an LU/ or DLR service. For example, London Euston to Clapham Junction via LU to either Waterloo or Vauxhall. In this example the ticket should be issued ZONES U12 to CLAPHAM JUNCTION.

So you could do what I said with LST to Selhurst as the first part of the journey is with LU, LST would not issue you a ticket to Selhurst from U1234, if they were to issue that ticket at all (maybe if you bought it from an LU ticket machine) they would issue it from U1 to Selhurst? But from a NR ticket office it would be LST to Selhurst

 

[dan_atki]

I am quoting DIRECTLY from the NFM and it does actually say
between two National Rail stations where the journey includes the cost of travel on London Underground and/or DLR services, e.g. ‘cross-London’ transfer

Key words here are 'cross-London transfer' - which is the '+Any Permitted' fare as shown in section A of the fare manual.

reading the NFM carefully it states the following

· ‘Train Tube’ tickets should also be issued for journeys from a designated London Terminals station where either –

a) the destination is an Underground or DLR station, but the first leg of the journey is on an NR service. For example, London Victoria via Balham to Morden (LU) should be issued LONDON TERMINALS to ZONES U1234.

or

b) where the destination is a NR station, but the first leg of the journey is on an LU/ or DLR service. For example, London Euston to Clapham Junction via LU to either Waterloo or Vauxhall. In this example the ticket should be issued ZONES U12 to CLAPHAM JUNCTION.

So you could do what I said with LST to Selhurst as the first part of the journey is with LU, LST would not issue you a ticket to Selhurst from U1234, if they were to issue that ticket at all (maybe if you bought it from an LU ticket machine) they would issue it from U1 to Selhurst? But from a NR ticket office it would be LST to Selhurst

A ticket cannot be issued from U1 to Selhurst but will be issued from U1234 to Selhurst (it must include ALL zones needed). I agree with you that staff will probably not sell you this ticket but you quoted from the fares manual yourself at 19:58 that zones can be reversed (end of the second bullet point). Indeed if you presented yourself at SRS ticket office and asked for a single to Liverpool Street they'd give you a 'From Selhurst, To U1234' ticket. Likewise the return portion of this ticket if you got a return would be 'From U1234, To Selhurst'.

A ticket also cannot be issued as 'From Liverpool Street, To Selhurst'. 99.5% of the time any ticket from a London terminal is issued as such 'From London Terminals' (then what would the difference be between the ticket issued at LST and the one at VIC apart from the price?). The other 0.5% occur when travelling between London Terminals via NR services. 'London Bridge to London Waterloo route Direct', 'London Waterloo to London Victoria route Clapham Junction' are examples of these. I'm sure there are a distinct few other rare cases an exact terminal name is used but can't think of them at this point in time.

LU ticket machines are an entirely different matter and do not sell NR tickets (didn't used to anyway - anyone know if this changed?) except when the only ticket office at a LU/NR station is LU operated (e.g. Farringdon). In these cases ticket machines (and ticket offices for that matter) can sell you a LIMITED range of tickets to NR destinations that can be reached from that station. Here the idea is for you to pretend you have got your ticket from a NR ticket office (also LU don't operate services there) and are making a journey solely by NR. Take Farringdon to St Albans as an example - no need to use LU services at all and indeed your ticket (on pink LU rather than orange/green NR stock) is effectively the same as a ticket bought in the reverse (or even the same) direction at St Albans (or any other NR ticket office).

Admittedly it seems weird that you cannot buy (unless they changed it) such U1234 to Selhurst tickets at Liverpool Street LU ticket office (or even Farringdon) - maybe that's LU's way of getting more money by making you buy a LU and NR ticket for your journey?

 

[glynn80]

LU ticket offices do allow you to purchase tickets to NR stations within the zones yes and Selhurst would be one of them.

Exact terminal names are usually only used when travelling between two terminals where NR exists for you to do so.