this is apalling (NHS to refuse surgery to the obese and smokers)

[Butts]

So they're only refusing elective surgery. Frankly nobody should be smoking these days. With obesity I have a great deal more sympathy as the issue isn't always "you sit around all day and eat too much".

Says who ? , are you in favour of paying higher taxes to make up the revenue shortfall. The taxation raised from tobacco products more than eclipses the amount it costs the NHS to treat those affected by smoking related diseases. We are talking billions more - not chicken feed 10 Million smokers paying the only regressive tax you are in favour of I suspect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is rubbish. You can eat healthy very cheaply. People just don't want to invest the time to do so as a microwave meal or take out is easier

Agreed - the lard arses are to idle , anyone who watches Benefits Britain or the ilk is aware of this
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Same with smokers - I'd rather that finite resources were targeted at those at least trying to quit - or operations become little more than a sticking plaster (no pun intended...).

Benson and Hedges should be available on prescription - I'd get them free up here
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The NHS is overburdened with Fat. Fat Cats who pay themselves what they like and if they oversee a foul up, as we have seen this week, they just step down and then some "mates" (also fat cats) create a job for them at a similar salary and nobody does anything to stop this gravy train. These people then blame the media for the problem, not themselves. The lady in question should have been SACKED as she probably would have been if she'd been a nurse.

Well I suppose it depends on what your definition of a "Fat Cat" is - someone on £150,000 a year or a Premiership Footballer on £1.5 Million per year for an average player.

The bottom line is with the advances in medicine and increases in life expectancy costs continue to escalate. So a decision has to be made about how much to spend and on what. Unfortunately like most other aspects of Social Policy everyone expects someone else to pay for it - ie anyone earning more than them.

Fraternal postulations with regard to the poor and ill don't extend to the ballot box when an individuals wallet is to be the source of funding a fairer and healthier society.

 

[yorksrob]

The first thing that needs to be clamped down on are the parasitic "entrepreneurs" who buy up expired patents for drugs, declare them to be generic, so that they theoretically no longer need regulation, then jack up the price by several times what the NHS was previously paying for them. Then they can start worrying about what patients are getting up to.

 

[AM9]

Despite all the (rightly so) concern about any trend that might be set with this announcement, I'm surprised that there's been no speculation that a health aurthority might be facing a human rights legal challenge should rationing actually take place.
BMI is not a universal measure of a healthy lifestyle which many health professionals now know anyway so deprivation of care to those who fail such a notional threshold could easily be considered as an unreasonable discrimination practice.

 

[Butts]

The first thing that needs to be clamped down on are the parasitic "entrepreneurs" who buy up expired patents for drugs, declare them to be generic, so that they theoretically no longer need regulation, then jack up the price by several times what the NHS was previously paying for them. Then they can start worrying about what patients are getting up to.

There is nothing to stop another manufacturer bringing out a generic version of the branded product and undercutting the "parasitic" ones once the patent has expired.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Despite all the (rightly so) concern about any trend that might be set with this announcement, I'm surprised that there's been no speculation that a health aurthority might be facing a human rights legal challenge should rationing actually take place.
BMI is not a universal measure of a healthy lifestyle which many health professionals now know anyway so deprivation of care to those who fail such a notional threshold could easily be considered as an unreasonable discrimination practice.

It might not be in a weightlifter or big boxer, but amongst the "couch potato" variety supping pop and guzzling doritos it's not far off the mark.

Rationing is inevitable in any Health Service with limited resources and always has been.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Don't expect this commission to be alone. Many more will follow.

One might ask would it have been better, in that case, for all these bodies to have had preliminary discussions and all to have made a "blanket" announcement at the same time, which would have had far more effect.

 

[yorksrob]

There is nothing to stop another manufacturer bringing out a generic version of the branded product and undercutting the "parasitic" ones once the patent has expired.

Not good enough. It relies too much on other manufacturers coming forward and producing things, rather than conspiring with each other to keep prices high.

Regulation should cap the price in perpetuity at whatever it was when the patent ended, rather than relying on "free market" hocus pocus, expecting something to happen as we want it to. Then, as its a price cap, another manufacturer could still come in and undercut the regulated price.

 

[Butts]

Not good enough. It relies too much on other manufacturers coming forward and producing things, rather than conspiring with each other to keep prices high.

Regulation should cap the price in perpetuity at whatever it was when the patent ended, rather than relying on "free market" hocus pocus, expecting something to happen as we want it to. Then, as its a price cap, another manufacturer could still come in and undercut the regulated price.

You can't control the whole worlds drug output and or prices. Many of the manufacturers are foreign so not subjected to any "caps". I agree a reasonable price should be negotiated perhaps higher for developed nations than the third world.

Do you think the health service should be free at point of use ?

 

[Trog]

The first thing that needs to be clamped down on are the parasitic "entrepreneurs" who buy up expired patents for drugs, declare them to be generic, so that they theoretically no longer need regulation, then jack up the price by several times what the NHS was previously paying for them. Then they can start worrying about what patients are getting up to.

Only an idiot would buy an expired patent, it would be as useful as buying last years TV licence off your next door neighbour. With the patent expired the original owner could sell you the dead patent and just carry on manufacturing the drug, and anyone else can jump in and make their own version.

The patent is only of any value while it prevents other people making the product, the idea of a patent being to give you a temporary monopoly to allow you to make a return on the money spent developing the product.

 

[yorksrob]

Only an idiot would buy an expired patent, it would be as useful as buying last years TV licence off your next door neighbour. With the patent expired the original owner could sell you the dead patent and just carry on manufacturing the drug, and anyone else can jump in and make their own version.

The patent is only of any value while it prevents other people making the product, the idea of a patent being to give you a temporary monopoly to allow you to make a return on the money spent developing the product.

Wrong word, "released" by the original developer.

Anyway, in the UK, the issue is more with 'generic' drugs which cease to come under a price agreement when their former branding is removed. Theoretically anyone can manufacture them but they don't.

 

[AlterEgo]

Says who ? , are you in favour of paying higher taxes to make up the revenue shortfall. The taxation raised from tobacco products more than eclipses the amount it costs the NHS to treat those affected by smoking related diseases. We are talking billions more - not chicken feed 10 Million smokers paying the only regressive tax you are in favour of I suspect.

Ah right, us non-smokers should be pleased people should continue to smoke. I see.

Hooray for smokers! Long live smokers! (Oh wait.)

 

[yorksrob]

You can't control the whole worlds drug output and or prices. Many of the manufacturers are foreign so not subjected to any "caps". I agree a reasonable price should be negotiated perhaps higher for developed nations than the third world.

Do you think the health service should be free at point of use ?

Perhaps the state should purchase it's own capacity to manufacture generic drugs. Not try and nationalise the whole market, just manufacture those where significant pricing anomalies have occurred.

 

[fowler9]

Just don't treat anyone who has an illness because of a lifestyle choice. No people in car crashes, no sports injuries, no one in the armed forces injured in combat, no really old people who chose to live healthily so they lived longer instead of dying young.

 

[backontrack]

One might ask would it have been better, in that case, for all these bodies to have had preliminary discussions and all to have made a "blanket" announcement at the same time, which would have had far more effect.

Maybe, oh, I dunno, not all of them wanted to make this decision?

 

[PermitToTravel]

People might be obese because of a medical condition or disabillity.
I'm also convinced that my two unrelated cats with the same diet being fat and thin suggests that a person's DNA can have a big effect on how soon someone becomes obese.

Someone's feeding your cat mate.

 

[LateThanNever]

Says who ? , are you in favour of paying higher taxes to make up the revenue shortfall. The taxation raised from tobacco products more than eclipses the amount it costs the NHS to treat those affected by smoking related diseases. We are talking billions more - not chicken feed 10 Million smokers paying the only regressive tax you are in favour of I suspect.
Fraternal postulations with regard to the poor and ill don't extend to the ballot box when an individuals wallet is to be the source of funding a fairer and healthier society.

But that is not a ballot box worry! The government has a sovereign currency - it can spend it into existance. Just what the Bank of England has done recently after the Brexit vote in adding £50bn odd to the £375 billion of QE for the banks which were also just created out of thin air. UK governments like to say that they tax and spend but they don't, they spend and then tax! It doesn't mean resources are unlimited but it does mean, as Keynes said, that "if you can do something you can afford it" (ie we may not have enough nurses or doctors, which is why imposing contracts on doctors who might emigrate is nuts, but we do have the money) see here for more info
https://medium.com/modern-money-mat...num-credit-card-works-45894046ef1c#.r4mb645je

 

[Trog]

Perhaps the state should purchase it's own capacity to manufacture generic drugs. Not try and nationalise the whole market, just manufacture those where significant pricing anomalies have occurred.

If they did I bet they would be even dearer than the previous manufacturer and the NHS would be told to buy their drugs even if they could get them cheaper elsewhere. There is a reason why Government and Civil Service wives/husbands always climb on top.

 

[AM9]

It might not be in a weightlifter or big boxer, but amongst the "couch potato" variety supping pop and guzzling doritos it's not far off the mark.

Rationing is inevitable in any Health Service with limited resources and always has been.

It may be a rough guide but to introduce a simple 'threshold' to justify removing healthcare with potentially lifechanging circumstances would be open to challenge. As has been mentioned here, age, disability, genetics and other medical conditions all have influences on a person not being classed as obese. I can imagine the media (except the DM) having a field day pointing out the life sacrifices that ordinary citizens would suffer in order so that the NHS can stay within its politically set budgets. Healthcare in the UK (and most other democratic nations) is available on the basis of medical need (government health service), or ability to pay (private).
Unless the clamour for disengagement with the ECHR actually gets conflated with Brexit, the legal world will have a field day. The only alternative then would be a legal code that defines lower BMI as a condition of entitlement. Mmmm, can't see that getting on the books, even with the nasty party.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I am trying to establish some sort of a logical connection between the General Election that brought a Conservative government into power and a single NHS Vale of York clinical commissioning group.

Who created the commissioning group?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Someone's feeding your cat mate.

It is true that some people have a higher basal calorie intake requirement than others (and some are more active than others). Each needs to eat accordingly.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Exactly that...and the proliferation of rubbish fast food shops on the High Street (and Railway Stations) and Ready Meals in Supermarkets and today's lifestyle choices where many choose the wrong course.......

Most supermarkets now have a much better selection of healthy ready-meals and there are far more healthy options available at stations etc. (the proliferation of Subway for example).

The fact that people choose to eat the unhealthy options cannot be denied though and that is a decision they are making, knowing the risks of becoming obese. This isn't like smoking in the 1950s when most people were completely unaware of the risks - I challenge you to find anyone at a pizza shop who doesn't know that it will cause obesity and risk heart problems etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also alot of people can't invest time as they got a job and leaving the cooking on when no one's in... could go wrong (also power bill is more).

I tend to cook very quick meals as I don't have much time. A tinned tomato and pasta based dish costs next to nothing and takes maybe 10 minutes.

Plus a hob/stove/cooker/oven etc. is alot more expensive than a Microwave

A single-burner gas stove costs about £15 from a camping shop if money is *that* tight, or you could cheaply buy an electric hob second hand.

Or: http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Produ...vc:c|adp:1o3&gclid=CPfAjOys-M4CFQMW0wodfIsGMg

Also there's no reason to assume food is more unhealthy because it wasn't slowcooked, you can microwave veg too.

This is true. The problem with microwave ready meals is not that they are microwaved, it's the salt, sugar and fat that goes into them. Cooking for one is quite financially inefficient, so I often cook for 4 and freeze my own "ready meals" - they are higher quality, nicer to taste and healthier than shop bought ones, and cheaper too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is simple. Do not shop at Iceland.

Aldi, if there's one nearby, would be a better bet for a budget supermarket choice - they are good for very cheap fresh veg.

 

[Clip]

I have a £1-1.50 budget for my personal dinner when I shop at Icelands. You find something for less than that typical pizza price in there which is healthy and I'll buy it on Monday. (Ideally I'd need 1000kcal for dinner).

Also alot of people can't invest time as they got a job and leaving the cooking on when no one's in... could go wrong (also power bill is more). Plus a hob/stove/cooker/oven etc. is alot more expensive than a Microwave
Also there's no reason to assume food is more unhealthy because it wasn't slowcooked, you can microwave veg too.

right so this is where you really are letting yourself down.

you can buuy a packet of 4 jacket potatoes and cook them at the begginning of the week and then chuck each one individually into the microwave to warm them up. Also some beans and grated cheese to go on them. Thatll cost you around £3 for 4 meals and each one will cointain around 2500kj


So I have just fed you for 4 days with more energy per meal and less cost than your £1.50 you spend per day.

Now dont ever turn round and say you cant eat cheaply and healthily again.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

The first thing that needs to be clamped down on are the parasitic "entrepreneurs" who buy up expired patents for drugs, declare them to be generic, so that they theoretically no longer need regulation, then jack up the price by several times what the NHS was previously paying for them. Then they can start worrying about what patients are getting up to.

kindly return when you understand the actual issues with regard to price gouging on patent expired drugs with limited markets ...

as oddly enough 'patent expired' drugs with a good market are very very very very very cheap ... ( generic means not brand named - and open to competition in regard to drugs - this occurs when the patent expires ) ... which is why generic ibuprofen costs 20 p a packet and nurofen costs 15 times as much for the exact same active ingredient

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Who created the commissioning group?

Noting the comments from the sole commissioning group reported by this thread, is it therefore the case of "biting the hand that feeds you" ?

 

[DarloRich]

I have a £1-1.50 budget for my personal dinner when I shop at Icelands. You find something for less than that typical pizza price in there which is healthy and I'll buy it on Monday. (Ideally I'd need 1000kcal for dinner).

Also alot of people can't invest time as they got a job and leaving the cooking on when no one's in... could go wrong (also power bill is more). Plus a hob/stove/cooker/oven etc. is alot more expensive than a Microwave
Also there's no reason to assume food is more unhealthy because it wasn't slowcooked, you can microwave veg too.

what on earth are you talking about?

Bin off Iceland and get down to the market and buy fresh food. It is easy and cheap to cook for yourself. Go to tesco ( or other) on a Sunday when they reduce the meat and fill your freezer up) Aldi and Lidl are also good for cheap fresh if you don't have a market nearby.

If you buy microwave meals you are eating crap. They are full of salt and sugar and fat. Don't buy them. I eat nothing pre processed and make everything from scratch. I work long hours and manage to cook decent healthy food for myself and I basically live in a cave at present. I own a slow cooker, a double camping hot plate, a fridge freezer and a microwave.

I often cook simple one pot meals ( chilli/spag bol/curry/stew) and freeze them in batches, I make soups for my lunch at work in the slow cooker and freeze them in pots. It is so easy and tastes much better and is MUCH better for you. Baked poatoes are really cheap and filling, pasta is really cheap (try B&M/Poundland) for this kind of thing.

I shop at the market, high street butcher, poundland and B&M with Tesco or Asda for exotics. I am on a really tight budget and have to make the money last. Honestly, go for it and cook yourself even if you are not confident have a go and build up form simple basics. There are loads of helpful guides on the net.


The fact that I am fat is due to my love of ale and sitting on my arsenal rather than silly food.

 

[Phil.]

what on earth are you talking about?

Bin off Iceland and get down to the market and buy fresh food. It is easy and cheap to cook for yourself. Go to tesco ( or other) on a Sunday when they reduce the meat and fill your freezer up) Aldi and Lidl are also good for cheap fresh if you don't have a market nearby.

If you buy microwave meals you are eating crap. They are full of salt and sugar and fat. Don't buy them. I eat nothing pre processed and make everything from scratch. I work long hours and manage to cook decent healthy food for myself and I basically live in a cave at present. I own a slow cooker, a double camping hot plate, a fridge freezer and a microwave.

I often cook simple one pot meals ( chilli/spag bol/curry/stew) and freeze them in batches, I make soups for my lunch at work in the slow cooker and freeze them in pots. It is so easy and tastes much better and is MUCH better for you. Baked poatoes are really cheap and filling, pasta is really cheap (try B&M/Poundland) for this kind of thing.

I shop at the market, high street butcher, poundland and B&M with Tesco or Asda for exotics. I am on a really tight budget and have to make the money last. Honestly, go for it and cook yourself even if you are not confident have a go and build up form simple basics. There are loads of helpful guides on the net.


The fact that I am fat is due to my love of ale and sitting on my arsenal rather than silly food.

Ah, so true, so very true but fat people are lazy and they can't be bothered to shop and cook. It's easier to get a couple of quid's worth of krap and put it into the microwave.

 

[richw]

Indeed. Many obese people are those who cannot afford better-quality food, and have to eat what they can. Once again, this will affect the poorest the hardest.

Strongly disagree with this statement.

I was made redundant several months back, and am now on a much lower income than previously. I've gone from £2k a month to around £800 a month income, once all the bills are paid I have around £45 a week for food and toiletries if I run my funds to zero.

Fruit and vegetables from my local greengrocer is far cheaper than processed meals for my family of 5. My local butcher does deals on his less popular cuts which are the best flavours if you know what to do with them(can't go wrong slinging in the slow cooker all day).
I made beef casserole yesterday, with veg from the greengrocer and some of cheek from my butcher. £3.00 of ingredients produced 11 portions!

It's down to education and knowing that the supermarket isn't always the cheapest place, and knowing what to do with lesser cuts of meat.

 

[yorksrob]

kindly return when you understand the actual issues with regard to price gouging on patent expired drugs with limited markets ...

as oddly enough 'patent expired' drugs with a good market are very very very very very cheap ... ( generic means not brand named - and open to competition in regard to drugs - this occurs when the patent expires ) ... which is why generic ibuprofen costs 20 p a packet and nurofen costs 15 times as much for the exact same active ingredient

Do something useful and give us the correct version of the problem then. (I admit, I may have some details of how the scam works incorrect).

 

[DarloRich]

Ah, so true, so very true but fat people are lazy and they can't be bothered to shop and cook. It's easier to get a couple of quid's worth of krap and put it into the microwave.

in fairness i am both fairly fat and fairly lazy

I loose loads of weight if i don't drink ale the problem is I like ale

 

[TheKnightWho]

Strongly disagree with this statement.

I was made redundant several months back, and am now on a much lower income than previously. I've gone from £2k a month to around £800 a month income, once all the bills are paid I have around £45 a week for food and toiletries if I run my funds to zero.

Fruit and vegetables from my local greengrocer is far cheaper than processed meals for my family of 5. My local butcher does deals on his less popular cuts which are the best flavours if you know what to do with them(can't go wrong slinging in the slow cooker all day).
I made beef casserole yesterday, with veg from the greengrocer and some of cheek from my butcher. £3.00 of ingredients produced 11 portions!

It's down to education and knowing that the supermarket isn't always the cheapest place, and knowing what to do with lesser cuts of meat.

And which demographics tend to get the best education..?