theTrainline won't believe me

[tony_mac]

Ok, here we go; I complained to TPExpress (for the 3rd time in 2 years!) that you can't book most advance fares from Liverpool to Darlington (as an example) through their website - and you have to book it through their website to get the 50% student discount.

I just picked a service and date as an example (leave Liv 11:22, arrive darlington 14:27 on 9th December), but it's true for any journey which has a quicker service from York on another TOC.

They forwarded it to thetrainline as they handle the online booking.

Here is the correspondance so far.......





Dear Antony,

This is in reference to your recent contact regarding the website.

I have checked and could find an Anytime Day Single ticket for £29.55 with 16-25 railcard discount. Without the discount, the cost of the ticket is £44.80. There are no Advance Purchase tickets available for £13.50.

The most economical tickets are the Advance Purchase Tickets which are released periodically after confirming any planned engineering works on the route. They are released 12 weeks in advance and can be purchased until 1800 hours on the day before the outward journey. These tickets are very popular and limited in number. Therefore, they are subject to availability.

Therefore, it is possible that the Advance Purchase tickets are available at one moment and gets sold out another moment. So when you tried to book these tickets, they might have been sold out completely. The price of the ticket depends on the availability.

If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate in contacting us.

Kind regards,

Terry


Dear Support,

I can assure you that the £13.50 advance does exist at that date and time; (11:22 on December 9th) you can find it by using the booking engine at other websites such as Southern Trains (and specifying Transpennine Express only).

I am telling you that it is impossible to book this fare on your website, because your website always returns the faster connection at York that is not with Transpennine Express.

Thank you for confirming that you are also unable to book this with your website, but could you also tell me when this option might be available?

Thanks


Dear Tony,

Thank you for writing back to us.

I have checked and can confirm that the Advance Single ticket for £13.50 is not available as of now. I am sorry for the inconvenience caused to you.

The cheapest fare that is available as of now is an Anytime Day Single ticket for £29.55 with 16-25 railcard discount.

If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate in contacting us.

Kind regards,

Terry

Thank you for your reply.

However, the fare is still available, it is just not available from your website for the reasons that I have explained previously.

Are you looking at the 11:22 leaving Liverpool, arriving in Darlington at 14:27, on 9th December with Transpennine Express trains only? This is £13.50, or £8.90 with a 16-25 railcard, as shown on the Southern Trains website.

Can you please confirm that you understand that this is a problem with your website, and give me some idea as to when it may be fixed?

Thanks,
Tony

Dear Tony,

Thank you for writing back to us.

I apologise for the delay in responding your email.

Unfortunately, this ticket was already sold out and should not have been shown as available on Southern website.

I regret the inconvenience this has caused. Our Development Team is working on resolving this issue as quickly as possible. This issue has affected only a small number of tickets so you could try booking a different ticket type for the same journey.

The best available fare availbale as of now is an Anytime Day Single ticket for £29.55 with 16-25 railcard discount as mentioned in my earlier email.

We regret the inconvenience this may have caused.

Kind regards,

Terry

Once again, are you looking at the trains that Leave Liverpool 11:22, 9th December and arrive in Darlington at 14:27? This ticket is *still* available for £13.50 advance single, from other retailers.

What arrival time do you have on the ticket that you looked at?
How are you looking for this ticket?
Do you understand that it is not possible to select this ticket from your website? That is the reason for my complaint.

If you manage to delay long enough that the ticket is sold out for that date, then please choose any alternative date in the future and you will find that it it cannot be selected on your website, even when it is available through other means.

I would buy from other places, but Transpennine Express give a discount that is only valid when purchased through your site.

Thanks,
Tony


Dear Tony,

Thank you for writing back to us.

I have checked and can confirm that the ticket for £13.50 is not available on our website. I have checked on the Southern website and can see that this ticket cannot be booked. It has already been sold out and should not have been shown as available on Southern website.

If you can find this ticket on other website, please book these tickets as they are subject to availability.

We regret the inconvenience this may have caused.

Kind regards,

Terry


Thank you again for your reply,
However the ticket is still possible to book through the Southern Website. (did you click the 'show slower routes' and then 'Transpennine Express trains only' options?)

I have attached a screenshot that shows the booking.
It is not possible, for any date in the future, to show this booking on your website.

As I said previously, in order to get the 50% discount that Transpennine Express advertise - it has to be bookable through your website, which is why I cannot book it through Southern Trains.

While I understand that you personally are not able to make this work on your website, would it be possible to escalate this complaint to somebody that can possibly address the issue of these tickets not being available?

Thanks,
Tony

Dear Tony,

Thank you for writing back to us.

I am providing you the Telesales number of Southern Trains. You can book the tickets through them. Please call their Telesales Team at 08451 27 29 20, where one of the advisors will be happy to book the tickets.

We appreciate your patience and sincerely hope that this matter is resolved at the earliest opportunity.

If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate in contacting us.

Kind regards,

Terry

Thank you for your reply,

as I told you previously, there is a 50% discount that is only available if I book online from Transpennine Express, and therefore through your website. I can not get this discount if I telephone.

Can you confirm for me that this ticket is not available from your website, but is is actually available to buy through other retailers?
I will then forward this response to Transpennine Express and they can work with you to resolve this situation

Thanks,
Tony

Dear Tony,

I have checked and can confirm the £13.50 ticket is not available on our website and First Transpenine website as well. As I mentioned the Advance Single tickets are the cheapest tickets and are subject to availability.

I can understand that you can find the tickets available on Southern website. But it won't allow you to buy as this ticket was sold out as I mentioned earlier.

If you have any further queries, please do not hesitate in contacting us.

Kind regards,

Terry


Thank you for your reply,
As you should have seen from my screenshot, the ticket is not sold out, as I have reserved seats and proceeded to payment, but it is not bookable on your website.

Perhaps you could tell me what dates you believe this ticket is available for? As you cannot book it on your website, how are you checking that it is sold out?

All I would really like from you now is to confirm that this ticket should be available, at some date in the future, but it is not possible to book it on your website. I can then ask Transpennine to work on it.

If you don't understand this, can this please be escalated to somebody who might be able to?

Thanks,
Tony

 

[yorkie]

If you are lucky, you just might get it escalated to someone with an IQ that is roughly as high as the national average, and who does not have to read off a script and has the ability to think for themselves. It takes a hell of a lot of effort to get that far with Thetrainline though!

Who are Thetrainline accountable to?

TOCs do seem to enjoy blaming Thetrainline, yet if they are unhappy with it they should move to an alternative provider. Thetrainline enjoy giving laughable responses. They were in breach of impartial retailing rules for many months by selling GDR (Day returns valid on weekends only) tickets without railcard discounts for about a year before it was finally changed. We couldn't be bothered to email them every day otherwise maybe we could have got it down to about 9 months... and what punishment do they get for overcharing people? Nothing.

Thetrainline is a disgraceful company that treats its customers like dirt. They must be glad they're working with the rail industry - otherwise they'd not get away with it.

 

[CallySleeperKid]

thetrainline.com do the booking for First ScotRail, who I had all my trouble with over not showing the cheaper fares when you are using a disabled adult railcard, they assured ScotRail that the issue is sorted, but it is still not!

 

[thetrainline]

Hi Tony,

Paul here; I work for thetrainline. I just spotted your post and I'd like to take a look into this issue.

I'll try look for your details in our system to get all the info, and hopefully those screenshot you provided. Did the support agent provide you with a support reference number by any chance? This would help me find the details much quicker.

I appreciate the fact that you have brought this to our attention and apologise for it not reaching our technical team sooner.

Kind regards,

Paul

 

[tony_mac]

I don't think it needs a screenshot, but I was getting desperate!

As an example, that I am a bit fed up of typing leave Liverpool at 11:22 on 9th December, change at York, 13:54 arrive 14:27. There is an advance single for that journey at £13.50 that you can buy from NXEC / Southern etc. (by choosing Transpennine trains only)

That journey cannot even be viewed on thetrainline, as there is a quicker connection from York.

It doesn't have to be that particular journey, or that particular date, but I gave an example to make it easier to understand.

(Transpennine claim to have brought this to the attention of your technical team in June 2008, but were told that there wasn't a problem - I thought I would try again as I think this is long enough for them to be advertising a product that is impossible to buy; they forwarded my email to thetrainline).
http://h1.ripway.com/fattony/journey.JPG

Any comments you have would be most interesting.
Thanks!

 

[theblackwatch]

I think this thread sums up the fact that thetrainline employs people who clearly have no understanding or knowledge of either (a) how their own booking engine works or (b) the complex UK ticketing system. Even when continually questioned, they appear incapable of even admitting there may be a problem. Hopefully now that Paul from thetrainline has got on the case it will be resolved, but I still think that, once resolved, it should be taken up at a higher level - ie FTPE/ATOC.

 

[Helvellyn]

So you proceeded right through to reserving seats on Southern's website - why not just book it there? I know you're saying it must be booked through TPE (and thus thetrainline) but if it'll let you book it on Southern, why not?

It'll be interesting to see what Paul comes back with. Either thetrainline is at fault; or thetrainline is right that it has sold out (based on quotas) and it is the Southern site that is wrong for showing it, and should not yet you take a booking through like you have. That can happen with websites, and have found myself in that position with an airline recently. Took the booking right through to payment, then it failed. A phonecall showed it was a website error, and that seats weren't available despite the website claiming otherwise.

 

[tony_mac]

I found my correspondence with Transpennine about this from June 2008.
It looks like it was all from thetrainline anyway; they were sent from the same ip addresses as my current replies.

It's very much along similar lines - I had to give a date so they could look for a specific journey, then they refuse to accept that an advance purchase ticket for that date actually exists! (either sold out or not been released yet)... and finally ..... 'I was unable to replicate the booking on our website to investigate as the travel date had already passed...'

So you proceeded right through to reserving seats on Southern's website - why not just book it there? I know you're saying it must be booked through TPE (and thus thetrainline) but if it'll let you book it on Southern, why not?

Because there is a 50% student discount on the TPExpress website; you can't get that discount with any other website.

thetrainline probably isn't looking at the same journey, it's a different connection from York. I asked them to confirm the arrival time, just in case it was the same journey and a question of 'quotas', but they did not reply to that question.
I did say in my original email to them that this is true for every similar journey in the future, but I had picked a service at random as an example, which is why I believe that they are almost certainly looking at the wrong journey, rather than a strange problem on the Southern /EC website.

Oh, and to be honest, I rarely travel on advance tickets anyway - but it's been nearly two years since I first told them about this, and they are still advertising a discount which is impossible to get on most journeys that I might make. And they keep denying that there is a problem!

 

[yorkie]

It'll be interesting to see what Paul comes back with. Either thetrainline is at fault; or thetrainline is right that it has sold out (based on quotas) and it is the Southern site that is wrong for showing it, and should not yet you take a booking through like you have. That can happen with websites, and have found myself in that position with an airline recently. Took the booking right through to payment, then it failed. A phonecall showed it was a website error, and that seats weren't available despite the website claiming otherwise.

There is no doubt that Thetrainline is at fault.

Unfortunately it is very difficult to get past the people reading from scripts, who are incapable of handling these type of complaints. It's the same with contacting TOCs or ATOC about the Routeing Guide, you have to get past the first layer of customer service which it is difficult to do.

Once you get to the experts then you get to speak to someone who has the intelligence to deal with what is no doubt a complex problem, and they may be able to help. But taking it to that level is very, very hard to do with so many of these companies, but Thetrainline is particularly bad in that respect. It takes many emails/calls before it gets escalated. These days I tend not to bother contacting Thetrainline as it's been so frustrating for me in the past. I always book using Atos Origin as it's so much better. The only exceptions are when FSR do 50% off, but that's not happened for a while now

 

[janb]

It'll be interesting to see what Paul comes back with. Either thetrainline is at fault; or thetrainline is right that it has sold out (based on quotas) and it is the Southern site that is wrong for showing it, and should not yet you take a booking through like you have. That can happen with websites, and have found myself in that position with an airline recently. Took the booking right through to payment, then it failed. A phonecall showed it was a website error, and that seats weren't available despite the website claiming otherwise.

I checked on Journey Planner, it is available. Given that even on that it requires excluding crosscountry as a TOC, or I presume retiming the journey leg to bring it up, they can't sell like hotcakes I imagine (although presumably an RJAP would find it).

 

[MKB]

I feel the OP's pain. It's sadly typical today that so many customer "service" departments of so many companies display the same ineptitude. I've had several similarly frustrating and fruitless exchanges with various companies, one of the worst being Virgin Trains.

I've had similar problems booking Advance tickets which involve a change of trains. Inventory can be available at the right level for the cheapest Advance ticket on both trains, but if the booking engine decides there's an earlier connection (without the required inventory), you cannot get the fare you want. I'm told that even rail booking offices can no longer force a journey on to specific trains.

Airline booking systems generally check longer connections to see if that gives cheaper fares, so why can't rail booking systems do this?

 

[janb]

I'm told that even rail booking offices can no longer force a journey on to specific trains.

I would say 8 or 9 times out of 10 you can, whether as an overtaken train, retiming the second journey leg later, excluding certain TOCs, being imaginative with via and exclude stations etc. But it is new software (albeit that its largely the same functions with a different GUI) and not everyone has the same skill level with it.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I have some concerns about the trainline, as they basically appear to be lying.

I have just been on their website, and have put in the details for the OPs journey. As stated it doesn't bring the journey up. When you click the button which says "Click here to check if slower routes with cheaper tickets are available.". It then says there are no slower routes, and there are no cheaper tickets.

The East Coast website, however, does what it should. If you select the "slower trains" button, then it offers an Advance for £8.90.

Thus, it would seem that the trainline is blatantly lying by saying there are no cheaper tickets when there quite obviously are.

 

[tony_mac]

well, in this case, I am using Transpennine's own website - so if they can't manage to show their own tickets then that is their own fault, somebody there has known about it for at least a year.

We also have Virgin's website (also thetrainline?) claiming that travelling on London Midland is actually more expensive than travelling with Virgin, when it's really much cheaper.

No, it doesn't show an advance ticket for £8.90, there are no advance tickets available for that journey as they have sold out. They are very popular and subject to availability. Oh, wait, hold on.......

BTW, they have sent me a screen shot to show that advance tickets aren't available, but obviously they haven't chosen Transpennine trains only. At least they are trying!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Fastis shows that particular advance fare as available to buy as of 0955 this morning, it made the booking (which I then cancelled), but I had to specify "exclude Cross Country", if that helps at all.

 

[tony_mac]

TP have actually been very good this time around; they understand the problem and will 'look into' a workaround. I don't expect it to be soon, as they also have to deal with thetrainline!

I suppose I can give up with thetrainline support as I don't really need an answer from then any more, but it seems a shame to leave it now.

I have sent them annotated screenshots on exactly how to find the advance tickets that they claim don't exist. I wonder if they will actually reply and acknowledge the problem, or maybe wait until December 9th then apologise that it's too late and I have to start again

I'm actually quite tempted to book that ticket now, just to prove to myself that it actually exists!

 

[tony_mac]

I followed this up, and got the following amusing reply.....

I am following up this issue, however, I have not received any update. Rest assured that our Technical Support Team have been investigating the issue and trying to resolve the issue at the earliest. We will get back to you as soon as we get an update from them.

The reply is amusing because they have actually finally done it!

It's a bit cumbersome; you have to ask for 'slower routes with cheaper tickets' and then click on the fare levels until you find one that is available.
As they are doing 25% off advance tickets until the end of the month, this is quite useful.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Web sites containing mistakes like the Trainline one is a recurring theme. All the more annoying when you see their billboard ads, claiming that booking through their web site achieves great savings.

If you know the train company who you'll be travelling with, book through *their* web site. If they screw up, then you can deal with them directly. And not through some middle man like trainline who don't seem to have things sorted out. I've never used Trainline and will certainly won't be choosing to do so.

 

[Deerfold]

Web sites containing mistakes like the Trainline one is a recurring theme. All the more annoying when you see their billboard ads, claiming that booking through their web site achieves great savings.

If you know the train company who you'll be travelling with, book through *their* web site. If they screw up, then you can deal with them directly. And not through some middle man like trainline who don't seem to have things sorted out. I've never used Trainline and will certainly won't be choosing to do so.

But he was booking through TPE's website - which is run by the trainline...

 

[mickey]

I remember reading about this a while back and have just spent ages searching to find it as I now find myself in a similar position...

Does anyone know if TPE ever got it sorted out? The 'slower+cheaper' link is useless - I can't even get through to the selection page as it just says there are no promotional fares available. They should be though, given their advertising and the fact that the normal fares are widely available on other sites.

(N.B. Anyone unfamiliar with the OT please read back before replying - this is about the larger 50% TPE discount for YP cardholders, not the normal 34% reduction.)

 

[tony_mac]

what journey are you looking for? Is there a direct service at any time?

I was looking for Liverpool to the North-East; you can do this by choosing the time as 6am, when the direct Liverpool to Newcastle service runs.

Once you have got it to find any service, you can then go through the 'slower and cheaper' options to get the one you want (using the 'later buttons' once you have a list). Although I think it will fail if there is a big gap between available trains.

I must check what the status of this is, I expect that we are all still waiting for theTrainline to reply......
To be fair, I had told TransPennine that I was happy that the tickets were now available. At that time, I had obviously not noticed the problem that Mickey mentions. The last response from theTrainline was 'I am following up this issue'.

I have now asked them for an update, bringing the 'no promotional fares available' message to their attention.
I wonder what fun replies I will get this time!

 

[mickey]

Thanks for the update. I wonder what would happen if I wrote to them and started it all up again?

Anyway, I've checked again and the two journeys I was looking for are both available by using the 6am LIV-NCL (and v-v) connections and scrolling through that way - but cripes it's a faff to do it. I also had to search in each direction separately - there was no way it would process it as a return journey - and presumably I'll need to book separately too. There's got to be a better way of doing this. And no doubt there are other journeys (and days? I bet Sundays bugger it up no end) where there's no convenient workaround.

Thanks though for your reply. It's such a shame tpe never got round to fixing it properly.