Theoretical excess

[Westcoast-ting]

Hi,

Can I buy a off peak return from Preston to Euston and on the return portion excess the ticket to Lancaster to avoid the evening peak eus- pre restrictions ??

As a guard I wouldnt do it on the train unless there was no facilities to do so before boarding

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi,

Can I buy a off peak return from Preston to Euston and on the return portion excess the ticket to Lancaster to avoid the evening peak eus- pre restrictions ??

As a guard I wouldnt do it on the train unless there was no facilities to do so before boarding

Whilst this might theoretically be possible, you don't have a right to an overdistance excess (selling it is at a ticket office's discretion). So obtaining such an excess may be problematic. Obviously it could never be done on the train as, aside from anything else, Euston barrier blocks mean you wouldn't be allowed on a 'peak' train with a non-excessed ticket anyway.

Even if you do manage to obtain the excess, Euston barrier staff have a reputation for rejecting valid tickets. They would probably know about the 'cliff edge' of Off-Peak restrictions and thus would probably 'see through' an attempt to 'get around' them through an overdistance excess.

There are plenty of easier and more legitimate options for getting around the Euston peak evening restrictions!

 

[Westcoast-ting]

Whilst this might theoretically be possible, you don't have a right to an overdistance excess (selling it is at a ticket office's discretion). So obtaining such an excess may be problematic. Obviously it could never be done on the train as, aside from anything else, Euston barrier blocks mean you wouldn't be allowed on a 'peak' train with a non-excessed ticket anyway.

Even if you do manage to obtain the excess, Euston barrier staff have a reputation for rejecting valid tickets. They would probably know about the 'cliff edge' of Off-Peak restrictions and thus would probably 'see through' an attempt to 'get around' them through an overdistance excess.

There are plenty of easier and more legitimate options for getting around the Euston peak evening restrictions!

Thanks, I’m going through a period of brain fade !

Think I’m due a holiday

 

[BluePenguin]

There are plenty of easier and more legitimate options for getting around the Euston peak evening restrictions!

Are there indeed? I could really do with finding out how please!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Are there indeed? I could really do with finding out how please!

Posting the details publicly is the quickest way of getting them removed!

 

[bunnahabhain]

Hi,

Can I buy a off peak return from Preston to Euston and on the return portion excess the ticket to Lancaster to avoid the evening peak eus- pre restrictions ??

As a guard I wouldnt do it on the train unless there was no facilities to do so before boarding

You cannot over distance an excess beyond the origin point of the ticket. It is not allowed. In this instance Preston is the origin of the ticket, so the return portion cannot be excessed for validity beyond Preston.

 

[Haywain]

You cannot over distance an excess beyond the origin point of the ticket. It is not allowed. In this instance Preston is the origin of the ticket, so the return portion cannot be excessed for validity beyond Preston.

A contentious point of view that has been discussed a number of times in the past. the fact is that whether it is allowed or not is a matter of interpretation and, regardless of that, some offices (or clerks) will issue such an excess and some won't.

 

[_toommm_]

A contentious point of view that has been discussed a number of times in the past. the fact is that whether it is allowed or not is a matter of interpretation and, regardless of that, some offices (or clerks) will issue such an excess and some won't.

I've had no problem in the past - turning a Barnsley to Leeds into a Sheffield to Leeds, and a Denby Dale to Huddersfield into a Sheffield to Huddersfield not via Leeds

 

[bunnahabhain]

A contentious point of view that has been discussed a number of times in the past. the fact is that whether it is allowed or not is a matter of interpretation and, regardless of that, some offices (or clerks) will issue such an excess and some won't.

It isn't a matter of contention. It is not permitted, I can't issue one even if I wanted, my system will not permit it.

 

[Haywain]

It isn't a matter of contention. It is not permitted, I can't issue one even if I wanted, my system will not permit it.

And yet, as you see from this post, it isn't impossible:

I've had no problem in the past - turning a Barnsley to Leeds into a Sheffield to Leeds, and a Denby Dale to Huddersfield into a Sheffield to Huddersfield not via Leeds

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

And yet, as you see from this post, it isn't impossible:

I suspect it depends mostly on the issuing system - it may well be that some systems block the issuance of these kinds of excesses, whilst others permit it.

 

[bunnahabhain]

And yet, as you see from this post, it isn't impossible:

No, it isn't impossible, and some colleagues have fudged it on our own system. An over distance excess is for excess in a B-C ticket into a B-D and/or D-B ticket, not into a C-A. Whilst some systems will permit it, it still isn't allowed. It is against the rules per se.

 

[BluePenguin]

Posting the details publicly is the quickest way of getting them removed!

Yes definitely! Although I will keep top secret any PMs people send me...my inbox is waiting

 

[Haywain]

No, it isn't impossible, and some colleagues have fudged it on our own system. An over distance excess is for excess in a B-C ticket into a B-D and/or D-B ticket, not into a C-A. Whilst some systems will permit it, it still isn't allowed. It is against the rules per se.

In your opinion. Other differ in their views, with debate around whether it is the origin point of the ticket or of the portion of the ticket that is relevant. For my part, as I don't work in the industry any longer, I don't have a strong view one way or the other.

 

[bunnahabhain]

In your opinion. Other differ in their views, with debate around whether it is the origin point of the ticket or of the portion of the ticket that is relevant. For my part, as I don't work in the industry any longer, I don't have a strong view one way or the other.

It isn't my opinion, it's what I've been instructed.

 

[Haywain]

It isn't my opinion, it's what I've been instructed.

Sorry. In the opinion you have chosen to listen to, then.

 

[reb0118]

You cannot over distance an excess beyond the origin point of the ticket. It is not allowed.......

Star Mobile used to "agree" with you as the origin station was "greyed out" when performing an excess so you could not change it even if you wanted to. This is no longer the case with certain excesses as I have managed to change the origin recently. That, in and of itself, does not make it a valid change however.

 

[yorkie]

I do not think the intention of the wording was to have this effect; like many things on the railway the wording is probably just sloppy.

However some people within RDG are not keen on excess fares generally and would like to see them scrapped...

Hi,

Can I buy a off peak return from Preston to Euston and on the return portion excess the ticket to Lancaster to avoid the evening peak eus- pre restrictions ??

...is probably the sort of post that they will be saving as evidence when they are trying to persuade the DfT to abolish excess fares.

It really is better not to give them ammunition.

Unfortunately there is no right to an overdistance excess contained within the NRCoT, which I feel is a shame, but RDG have no inclination to add it. This is in contrast to, for example, a change of route excess, which is something passengers are entitled to, and cannot be charged at any higher rate on board a train than a ticket office.

So if a ticket office won't issue it, all you can do is 'shop around' until you find one that will, and that could take a while...

 

[Wallsendmag]

On our TIS you set up the ticket that the customer wants to change to and excess it as necessary. Our previous pricing team basically said excess whatever to whatever with one or two caveats. These were mainly around the Weekender tickets.

 

[yorkie]

Yes the East Coast franchise has always tended to have a sensible policy regarding the issuing of excess fares.

It's a shame not all TOCs are so sensible and pragmatic; as an extreme example London Overground staff have been known to say the only type of excess that even exists is a single to return excess!

 

[causton]

On our TIS you set up the ticket that the customer wants to change to and excess it as necessary. Our previous pricing team basically said excess whatever to whatever with one or two caveats. These were mainly around the Weekender tickets.

Yes, on Tribute the onus is on the clerk to know about any rules. You choose the new ticket, type in the old one's number and price and the excess type and that's it.
The stupid thing is that on the new Envoy mobile machines you choose the old ticket, then choose the new ticket to excess it to and can only change what the system lets you change - so for example an RPI cannot excess up a Railcard-discounted ticket to a normal one, correct certain issuing errors people make on TVMs etc. You would think the ticket office one would be more restricted and an RPI would have their discretion as to what to do

 

[bunnahabhain]

Yes, on Tribute the onus is on the clerk to know about any rules. You choose the new ticket, type in the old one's number and price and the excess type and that's it.
The stupid thing is that on the new Envoy mobile machines you choose the old ticket, then choose the new ticket to excess it to and can only change what the system lets you change - so for example an RPI cannot excess up a Railcard-discounted ticket to a normal one, correct certain issuing errors people make on TVMs etc. You would think the ticket office one would be more restricted and an RPI would have their discretion as to what to do

Railcard discount to public fare shouldn't be done onboard anyway, it should be a brand new ticket and a refund claimed if they've forgotten their railcard. Else you may as well always buy a railcard discounted ticket even though you don't have a railcard on the off chance you get asked to pay the difference to what you should have paid.

 

[Muzer]

It isn't my opinion, it's what I've been instructed.

And TOCs are famously good at correctly instructing their ticket office staff, aren't they?

 

[Muzer]

Railcard discount to public fare shouldn't be done onboard anyway, it should be a brand new ticket and a refund claimed if they've forgotten their railcard. Else you may as well always buy a railcard discounted ticket even though you don't have a railcard on the off chance you get asked to pay the difference to what you should have paid.

That sort of inflexible thinking is the reason why railway staff have a bad reputation. What if a person gets on, seeks out the guard, and apologises profusely for leaving their railcard at home? I myself have done this before and have had a sympathetic guard who has given me a railcard-to-non-railcard excess. On the other hand I wouldn't expect such a thing to be issued to someone who sits quietly in their seat and clearly makes no attempt to rectify their mistake, for the reasons you say. I just think claiming that there's no circumstances whatsoever when one should be issued is a ridiculous attitude to have. By all means, if you want to be renowned as a jobsworth, feel free to continue with that attitude.

 

[bunnahabhain]

That sort of inflexible thinking is the reason why railway staff have a bad reputation. What if a person gets on, seeks out the guard, and apologises profusely for leaving their railcard at home? I myself have done this before and have had a sympathetic guard who has given me a railcard-to-non-railcard excess. On the other hand I wouldn't expect such a thing to be issued to someone who sits quietly in their seat and clearly makes no attempt to rectify their mistake, for the reasons you say. I just think claiming that there's no circumstances whatsoever when one should be issued is a ridiculous attitude to have. By all means, if you want to be renowned as a jobsworth, feel free to continue with that attitude.

If somebody came up in the scenario you were describing I'd probably be using my discretion and sorting them out with a magic hand ticket. There isn't any real need for constantly charging the difference now we have a 'forgotten railcard policy' that I believe is now a nationwide scheme.