The worst train today?

[Neptune]

195s. That is, would 195s for 'Arrigut result in a microfleet and thus not feasible, or are there already any over that side?

There is no chance of the 195’s becoming a micro fleet on the east as they work back to Newton Heath regularly due to their Calder Valley work.

There isn't the capacity in the 195 fleet to work Harrogate line. Even if they did work the route no time savings would be possible due to the long single line sections plus pathing constraints at Leeds and York.

That the 170s might interwork with Sheffield-Scarborough is largely irrelevant, they don't *have* to.

As I said the 170’s are fine on the Harrogate line. The 170’s had issues when they first arrived due to being confined to 65mph max Harrogate line work with some Selby stoppers thrown in. However once they were signed by Hull crews and mainly moved onto the Sheffield - Scarborough route these issues have gone due to the mixed traffic nature of their work. Each unit is diagrammed for a few days on Harrogate line work then set free on faster inter urban work for a few days with regular exams as per any fleet.

So what are the issues with this that our 170 engineers don’t know about but you evidently do?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

All doors at thirds Mk3 based DMUs and EMUs as built.
It must have taken a particularly vindictive designer to design a train where not a single seat was properly window aligned, or later a seat layout where even a kid would have trouble fitting.

The PEP design (313, 507/8, based on Mk2?) were even worse for seat positioning, plus they had low seat backs in 2+3 format.
Merseyrail's 2+2 mid-life refurb made the best of a bad internal design.
The trouble is they were such good performers for the operators (rugged, cheap etc), and they are now past 40 years in service.

 

[jamiearmley]

195s would be absolutely perfect. Question is, are any others used on the east side?

The 195s perform badly in leaf fall...tbf, they perform badly in anything less than optimal rail conditions. Its not noticeable on the semi Express services they usually work, but put them on penistone, harrogate, knottingley services during peak leaf fall season and it will quickly become obvious.
Im not saying that the 170 units are any better : they aren't : but they do have the advantage of being heavier, and therefore easier to stop and start when the railhead is working against you.
For context, i once worked a man vic - rochdale fast, with additional stop orders at moston, mills hill. We were 23 minutes late into rochdale, mainly due to a light drizzle, a contaminated railhead and a climbing gradient from a standing start at moston. Normally with those two additional stops one would expect to lose 4 minutes max.
There's never a one size fits all solution, new doesn't always equal better, and i would bet good money that 195s on the harrogate in leaf fall would see a return to the halcyon days of Pacers sliding through booked stops at speed... all good fun!

 

[Mat17]

The Merseyrail 142s are the worst trains I have ever travelled on.

The 153s were glorious by comparison.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Merseyrail 142s are the worst trains I have ever travelled on.

They were pretty dire but I'd take one over the truly awful 720s. At least a 16m vehicle is wide enough for 3+2.

The 153s were glorious by comparison.

Yep.

 

[Razorblades]

The Merseyrail 142s are the worst trains I have ever travelled on.

The 153s were glorious by comparison.

Agree with this; I know 153s have a cramped cab so are not liked by drivers, but in real terms they are not substantially worse than a 156 when used in rural, lower speed duties. Bowling along to Barnstaple from Exeter on a summer's day - fabulous. Alright, catching one Darwen to Manchester Victoria stood packed in like sardines would create a different perception, but that's what this topic is all about!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree with this; I know 153s have a cramped cab so are not liked by drivers, but in real terms they are not substantially worse than a 156 when used in rural, lower speed duties. Bowling along to Barnstaple from Exeter on a summer's day - fabulous. Alright, catching one Darwen to Manchester Victoria stood packed in like sardines would create a different perception, but that's what this topic is all about!

153s are quite good for scenic lines, having the same "wall of glass" as a Pacer.

 

[NewClee153]

Agree with this; I know 153s have a cramped cab so are not liked by drivers, but in real terms they are not substantially worse than a 156 when used in rural, lower speed duties. Bowling along to Barnstaple from Exeter on a summer's day - fabulous. Alright, catching one Darwen to Manchester Victoria stood packed in like sardines would create a different perception, but that's what this topic is all about!

I’ve heard that the newer smaller cab is actually more comfortable than the original cab, how true this is, I’m not sure

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve heard that the newer smaller cab is actually more comfortable than the original cab, how true this is, I’m not sure

I've heard that too, including from a fairly tall driver.

 

[Neptune]

I’ve heard that the newer smaller cab is actually more comfortable than the original cab, how true this is, I’m not sure

More knee room in the small cab. The box under the desk in the original end massively reduces knee room.

 

[TRAX]

They were pretty dire but I'd take one over the truly awful 720s. At least a 16m vehicle is wide enough for 3+2.



Yep.

Oh my word…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh my word…

The 720 is truly the worst thing I have ever experienced on the rails. It really is awful. Merseytravel Pacers aren't up to much, but at least they have some seats I can comfortably (ish) sit in.

Assuming the WCML 3+2 730s are the same, as I believe they will be, I'm steeling myself for the cost of always having to travel First Class. I don't see any other option bar standing for every journey.

 

[TRAX]

The 720 is truly the worst thing I have ever experienced on the rails. It really is awful.

Yes yes we know we know. To be honest I’m not sure why your opinion still isn’t on the Wikipedia page for the Class 720 as you’ve repeated it so much now it surely must’ve become fact and vital that everyone is aware of it even beyond here !

 

[prod_pep]

I can honestly say I've heard it all now on this forum with that one. It's all been said before but a modern, bright interior with admittedly fairly poor legroom or a dingy, smelly, bus-seated mess with abysmal ride quality and even worse legroom? It's orders of magnitude, leagues of difference, worlds apart here as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can honestly say I've heard it all now on this forum with that one. It's all been said before but a modern, bright interior with admittedly fairly poor legroom or a dingy, smelly, bus-seated mess with abysmal ride quality and even worse legroom? It's orders of magnitude, leagues of difference, worlds apart here as far as I'm concerned.

I don't want to see Pacers running local services on the GEML of course. However, there are more seats I can sit on comfortably in a Merseytravel Pacer of equivalent length* to a 720 than in an actual 720.

* I guess that'd be a 6-car formation, so you'd be talking the 5 seats in the end row plus the side-facing bench. I forget if the Merseytravel units had the bench at both ends but they certainly had it at one (opposite the bike rack), so let's go with (5 + 5 + 3) * 3 = 39 seats, whereas on a 720 it is only the 8 2+2 seats at the cab ends for a total of 16.

 

[py_megapixel]

I know someone mentioned class 170s. The only real issue I have with them is the seats. They have the same problem as Voyagers in that the seat backs are extremely thick and the layout doesn't account for this, which reduces legroom a lot.

CrossCountry and their contractors seem to do a better job of maintaining the 170s than the Voyagers (though a couple of the PIS screens were faulty when I was travelling the other day).

 

[Falcon1200]

I've always found Scotrail's Class 170 sets perfectly comfortable, even when they worked the flagship Edinburgh/Queen St route, with nice big windows through which to observe the scenery! And of course, as with the Voyagers, complaints about lack of capacity are not a fault with the trains themselves but the way they are used.

 

[Mikey C]

I find the Chiltern 168s very comfortable, and apart from the diesel rumble, much nicer than the 390s if going to Birmingham.

 

[NewClee153]

If we're talking modern stock, it’s a class 195, and nobody can change my mind

Overall, the 769's would be contenders, wouldn’t they?

The Nova 2s are pushing these Class 195s (or, as I like to call them Modern Pacers) very close. Trademark CAF terrible ride quality, seats seemingly designed to create the most uncomfortable experience possible. While they’re stylist and look to be better built than their 195/331 cousins (the latter can thank it’s frighteningly quick acceleration off the mark for exemption for the worst list), for long distance services, these aren't great at all

 

[InkyScrolls]

For the crew, 331s and 195s are easily among the worst. For passenger experience I would say the same! 'Modern Pacers' is a good name indeed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the crew, 331s and 195s are easily among the worst. For passenger experience I would say the same! 'Modern Pacers' is a good name indeed.

A bit harsh. Modern 150s maybe.

 

[skyhigh]

For the crew, 331s and 195s are easily among the worst.

Conductors, maybe. Drivers - definitely not!

 

[InkyScrolls]

Conductors, maybe. Drivers - definitely not!

Interesting you'd say that; every driver I've spoken to despises them!

 

[MattRat]

For the crew, 331s and 195s are easily among the worst. For passenger experience I would say the same! 'Modern Pacers' is a good name indeed.

I'd still prefer riding them over a Pacer, or most Sprinters for that matter, due to their age. They're quieter, cleaner, smell better, and you can always distract yourself on your phone if it gets too bad due to wifi and charging ports.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting you'd say that; every driver I've spoken to despises them!

Really? I've seen several on here say they love them - big, spacious cab, excellent view and responsive controls.

 

[ivorytoast28]

As a passenger the 455 SWR fleet mostly because of the relatively long journey times with no toilets, but they also seem rather jolty/bumpy along the new Guildford line

 

[reduke]

Up there is the 360 that should be 12 car with a refurb but often is just 4 car with a paint job.

All of greater Anglias new stock is terrible.

The crossrail trains are just fugly, lack of toilets and plugs terrible, and seating appalling, although the journey times across London save it from #1, just.

The worst train from recent memory is a Chiltern 165 on an engineering work day when you pass piles of unused 168s in the depot doing nothing!

(And don't get me started on 70x... Desiro... Would rather take a 455 out of Waterloo and that's saying something!)

 

[py_megapixel]

All of greater Anglias new stock is terrible.

The Aventras may be bad.

I don't see what's wrong with the FLIRTs though? They seem to be solidly built units which offer a smooth quiet journey with all the mod cons (air conditioning, charging, a decent PIS etc.) and the best disabled accessibility in the country. They are the only trains in Britain that really rival their counterparts in continental Europe.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As a passenger the 455 SWR fleet mostly because of the relatively long journey times with no toilets, but they also seem rather jolty/bumpy along the new Guildford line

Used to hate them before they were refurbished and still had those horrible low-backed seats as per the PEP-derived classes. I'd always change at Surbiton for a slammer rather than ride all the way from Hampton Court on the 455s. Unless I had by bike with me of course.
Once they were upgraded they were more tolerable, but we're going back the best part of 20 years, so I don't know if they've aged particularly gracefully!

 

[skyhigh]

Interesting you'd say that; every driver I've spoken to despises them!

Great view out the front, powerful, good brakes, headlights that actually let you see something and a computer that tells you what's up if it won't go. The computer element is the bit some drivers don't like, but once you get used to it they're really good units to drive - especially now a lot of the early issues have been ironed out.