The worst train today?

[Mikey C]

I don't have a worst train, because it really depends on what it's being used for, and the journey you are making.

The same train which is fine on a short journey, is inappropriate on a longer journey, and vice versa. Or the train might be fine, but because it's too short, the journey is horribly cramped and unpleasant - that's not the fault of the train.

For example on short, lightly loaded low speed journeys as a "tourist" I had no problems with Pacers, which were fine for the job, and have a great view out. On the other hand if I had to travel an hour every day on a Pacer I'd hate them

 

[DustyBin]

Now that the Pacers have gone the acolade would have to go to Class 180s. Unreliable (The real biggy, after all a failed train is nothing more than a heap of scrap...), a very jiggly ride at speed, noisy, and on one memorable occasion returning to Hull in heavy rain, leaky. What I find disappointing is that they should have been 'really useful' units for less busy routes where 5 coaches is enough, but i suppose being a small fleet there was never the will or need to sort them.

Close behind would be 220/1s, poor use of space, feel cramped, totaly inadequate for the routes they serve, and as for the smell from the bogs, well lets just leave that one.

As long as they’re actually working(!) I find the 180s quite pleasant from a passenger perspective. In practice they’re inherently flawed, but they should be good, useful trains as you say.

I don't have a worst train, because it really depends on what it's being used for, and the journey you are making.

The same train which is fine on a short journey, is inappropriate on a longer journey, and vice versa. Or the train might be fine, but because it's too short, the journey is horribly cramped and unpleasant - that's not the fault of the train.

For example on short, lightly loaded low speed journeys as a "tourist" I had no problems with Pacers, which were fine for the job, and have a great view out. On the other hand if I had to travel an hour every day on a Pacer I'd hate them

Very true and it’s worth remembering this.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I would say the TPE loco hauled sets take some beating if you are using the metric of "What they could have been, versus what they ended up being"

Unreliable, terrible window alignment, deafening if you are in the station with one and you should see the state of the platform canopy at York platform 2 where the 68 berths up.

Nowhere near as good as the 802s on the same York-Leeds run.

I have no problems with the 195s. (Except when a 2 car one turns up) and the not the best ride quality, but what they replaced on the routes i use, its nice for something to be able to get up the hill.

If there is one train I would avoid like the plague these days it would be a Northern 150 though. Thankfully incredibly rare in my patch, but apart from the fact they are a train, there are no positives when one turns up at the station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would say the TPE loco hauled sets take some beating if you are using the metric of "What they could have been, versus what they ended up being"

Unreliable, terrible window alignment, deafening if you are in the station with one and you should see the state of the platform canopy at York platform 2 where the 68 berths up.

Yep, Standard is awful. First is pretty special though.

 

[miklcct]

Class 378, an awful, awful train.

Class 378 is nearly the best in my opinion (although the 345 and 710 may be slightly better).

Class 378 is spacious and has air conditioning. It is also efficient making station calls having DOO (driver-only operation). I think that Voyagers are much worse than 378.

 

[Mat17]

185s are pretty good.

 

[Clansman]

150s don't belong anywhere on the modern rail network. Horrible units.

Fit for the times when low costs alternatives were needed, but nobody can honestly say IMO that they are suitable for anything out there at the minute.

I reckon it's important to distinguish between serviceability, suitability, and longevity. They may be serviceable, they may have over 30 years experience on a route - but that does not make them suitable.

The lines between those 3 can often be blurred on here at times by the first and last ones especially.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

185s are pretty good.

They are a bit overweight though, and expensive to run as a result. Something that people forget whenever they suggest cascading them to Northern.

 

[Clansman]

They are a bit overweight though, and expensive to run as a result. Something that people forget whenever they suggest cascading them to Northern.

Also their previous use on busy, long distance intercity routes has given many the illusion that they belong there!

 

[XAM2175]

22x were a decent "first go" at a 125mph InterCity DEMU but have many, many shortcomings.

I'd be curious to know how the ICE TD sets compare, given that they were developed at virtually the same time as the 221s and even use the same engines. I never got to ride on one but my impression from the EMU version is that (unsurprisingly) we'd have been far better off with the Siemens product.

 

[43096]

22x were a decent "first go" at a 125mph InterCity DEMU but have many, many shortcomings.

From a technical point of view they may have been a decent "first go", but the above frame bit was disastrous. That's got nothing to do with it being a DEMU and everything to do with rank bad specifications and design.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be curious to know how the ICE TD sets compare, given that they were developed at virtually the same time as the 221s and even use the same engines. I never got to ride on one but my impression from the EMU version is that (unsurprisingly) we'd have been far better off with the Siemens product.

They had nicer interiors but were horribly unreliable. The Class 180 of Deutsche Bahn?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2022 ==

From a technical point of view they may have been a decent "first go", but the above frame bit was disastrous. That's got nothing to do with it being a DEMU and everything to do with rank bad specifications and design.

If only we could have had a 180 with the Voyager traction package underneath!

 

[43096]

If only we could have had a 180 with the Voyager traction package underneath!

Exactly! It must have been possible, as the electrical kit underneath the Voyager is Alstom's. As I understand it the decision to go with hydraulic transmission on the 180s was customer driven - Western Region wanted their hydraulics!

 

[XAM2175]

They had nicer interiors but were horribly unreliable. The Class 180 of Deutsche Bahn?

I suspect if they'd been as important to DB as the Voyagers are to operators here they probably would have put the effort in to get them working!

 

[Richard Scott]

They had nicer interiors but were horribly unreliable. The Class 180 of Deutsche Bahn?

Agree, great interiors. Only went on one once and it did complete the journey!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree, great interiors. Only went on one once and it did complete the journey!

It seems they're all out of service after just 18 years, but one remains in use as a departmental unit.

 

[GoneSouth]

It has windows. Somewhere.

And very nice windows they are too if you happen to have a seat that is lined up with one. They also provide a superb roller blind to enable me to hide the industrial wasteland between Wolves and Brum.

the world has changed, and the future has a pantograph, and so they are prematurely outmoded.

sadly I can’t see a pantograph being much use within the next 20 years around Moorthorpe, Burton on Trent, Cheltenham, Taunton, Exeter, anywhere UI west of Plymouth and Oxford. That’ll put them at 40+ by the time retirement arrives.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

Any train with predominantly or solely longitudinal seating; Yes TfL, I'm looking at you. Gazing out of the window is a major pleasure of rail travel.

In that case it’s super design as you are looking straight at the windows, albeit not the one you are next to

 

[MattRat]

sadly I can’t see a pantograph being much use within the next 20 years around Moorthorpe, Burton on Trent, Cheltenham, Taunton, Exeter, anywhere west of Plymouth and Oxford. That’ll put them at 40+ by the time retirement arrives.

Well since the OP was talking about the 22X, I presume they meant the replacement would be bi mode 80Xs, which do have a pantograph.

Although I imagine some people would see that as a downgrade

 

[mike57]

22x were a decent "first go" at a 125mph InterCity DEMU but have many, many shortcomings.

And these short comings are not related to the underlying design concept, a full strip out of the interior and refurb, then either reform into longer units (if thats possible?) with some new units to take up the slack or cascade to less busy routes would address most of the issues. I realise that the cramped feel is due to loading gauge constraints introduced by the need to tilt, and you cant do anything about that, but if the other issues were addressed this would seem less significant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

They are a bit overweight though, and expensive to run as a result. Something that people forget whenever they suggest cascading them to Northern.

And as a result cannot take advantage of Sprinter speed differentials, which are on some of the routes they serve have

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Aug 2022 ==

I would say the TPE loco hauled sets take some beating if you are using the metric of "What they could have been, versus what they ended up being"

One thing I dont understand is why simple design errors which result in issues which could have been avoided at the design stage seem to be ignored, it almost feels like 'dont care' on the part of the designers/specifiers. Taking the case of the TPE loco hauled sets if you rearranged the seats the window alignment could be improved, same number of the same seats, just a different configuration. There would have been no cost if caught before the build starts. Don't they 3D model designs and 'walk through' before committing. We do it all the time in our industry, and its surprising how often it catches something which would have been a right pain (or worse) later in the project.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

And as a result cannot take advantage of Sprinter speed differentials, which a some of the routes they serve have

Indeed. Not a problem on the Standedge route they were predominantly procured for, which has no MU or SP speeds (apart from on the Hull branch) but not ideal anywhere else. Something people forget when they suggest lumbering Northern with them once TPE don't need them. Often the same people who bang on about Northern being a financial basket-case.

 

[mike57]

apart from on the Hull branch

And also the Scarborough branch, significant stretches with a 10 to 15mph differential

 

[61653 HTAFC]

And also the Scarborough branch, significant stretches with a 10 to 15mph differential

Wasn't aware of that... 10-15mph lower isn't an issue given their superior acceleration compared to 15x.

 

[Fyldeboy]

When I first read this thread title, I thought the comments would be about the 7:43 Newcastle to Liverpool Lime St or similar!

 

[mike57]

Wasn't aware of that... 10-15mph lower isn't an issue given their superior acceleration compared to 15x.

According to RPS 158s still hold the record for the York - Scarborough times. Acceleration doesnt make as much difference here, the problem on this route is that stops are spaced out and its fairly flat, its roughly 18 miles from Seamer to Malton and about 21 miles from Malton to York with a slow twisty bit around Kirkham Abbey, but there are differentials over most of the route. Here is a clip from their spreadsheet with best times

 

[NewClee153]

If we're talking modern stock, it’s a class 195, and nobody can change my mind

Overall, the 769's would be contenders, wouldn’t they?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we're talking modern stock, it’s a class 195, and nobody can change my mind

Tried a 720 yet?

769s are mechanically junk, but inside they're just 319s, which are dated but not awful. Unless you want to put "all ex-BR Mk3 derived 20m units" as the answer (and I'd agree they are a dated design which is on the way out with some silly features, e.g. zero window alignment) they are neither better nor worse in terms of the interior than any other such unit (barring that 319/2s are just lovely).

 

[MattRat]

If we're talking modern stock, it’s a class 195, and nobody can change my mind

Overall, the 769's would be contenders, wouldn’t they?

I mean, most modern stock is built to the same or worse standards, so what makes the 195s so special?

 

[NewClee153]

Tried a 720 yet?

769s are mechanically junk, but inside they're just 319s, which are dated but not awful. Unless you want to put "all ex-BR Mk3 derived 20m units" as the answer they are neither better nor worse in terms of the interior than any other such unit.

I quite like the seating on the 720s, even if I despise the 3+2 layout, and the underfloor heating is lovely

I mainly chose the 769s because of the amount of problems TfW have been having with them

 

[Bletchleyite]

I quite like the seating on the 720s, even if I despise the 3+2 layout, and the underfloor heating is lovely

Read "a bit pointless" because they haven't got rid of the footroom-blocking conduit!

 

[185]

According to RPS 158s still hold the record for the York - Scarborough times.
Here is a clip from their spreadsheet with best times

Should note those times were prior to OTMR/Data Recorder/big orange box going in the cabs, and at a time when the chap with the old speed gun would come sit in York mess room prior to his 'fishing' trip where he'd tell everyone which pond he was 'fishing' at.